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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1.e4 or 1.d4? (Read 31844 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #51 - 09/22/05 at 15:56:09
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As for the actual question of the thread:  Alias, I think you're doing the right thing in "test driving" both 1. d4 and 1. e4 in blitz games.  That'll give you a way better feel for what you like than any theorizing or guess-work.  If you're enjoying 1. e4 the most in blitz, I'm betting you'll enjoy it the most in classical time controls, too.


I second that!  (Just realise that 1.e4 will demand more study.  Oh shucks, I just recommended that you play more chess.  Isn't that horrible!  8) It's great when your favorite pasttime is rich enough to take up all of your free time if you want it to!)
  
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bravehoptoad
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #50 - 09/22/05 at 15:48:50
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It is better to stick to a stable light on theory repertoire and then study cutting edge theory, one at a time.


I'm with Inn2--this has been my strategy for a long time as well.  My "e4" repetoire started with 1. Nc3, which usually transposed to some kind of e4 game, but drastically limited the amount of study I had to do.  When at last I felt comfortable, I moved to playing 1. e4 outright, but with a set of modest openings that didn't require much theory, like Bishop's Opening, or the Short system in the Advance Caro, or the Closed Sicilian.  With this last I've worked around to switching to an Open Sicilian with 3. Nf6 when Black plays 2...e6, and maybe someday--who knows?--I'll play Open against all Sicilians...or maybe I'll "upgrade" my answer to 1...e5 first. 

It's repetoire building in installments, and so far it's worked out okay for me. 

It's funny but true that I'm guessing we class players skimp on our White repetoires--where it's possible to get an equal game without much effort--to concentrate on our Black repetoires--where you can get blown off the board if you don't know what you're doing. 

As for the actual question of the thread:  Alias, I think you're doing the right thing in "test driving" both 1. d4 and 1. e4 in blitz games.  That'll give you a way better feel for what you like than any theorizing or guess-work.  If you're enjoying 1. e4 the most in blitz, I'm betting you'll enjoy it the most in classical time controls, too.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #49 - 09/22/05 at 15:07:48
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Willempie:

True, true.  He didn't play the best move even when he had the BFO (Blinding Flash of the Obvious) that in fact 1.d4 is indeed best. 8)

Now, on a slightly more serious note, and actually addressing Alias' question:

Both 1e4 and 1.d4 are great, superb, excellent, classic!  But, for a player coming off c4 and Nf3 systems, 1.d4 makes a much more gentle transition.  So in your case, if you've been playing a bunch of English Openings you should probably consider 1.d4 lines. 

To save yourself some work in the beginning, the Catalan is an excellent transitional opening from the English, and cuts down on a lot of your work.  Against the KID the Classical or the Saemisch is the way to go, so you may as well learn one of those.  The Grunfeld may be a special problem for you, so give Black the headache for a change, don't go into the Exchange variation.  The Classical (Bf4) System is still good.  You may also want to check out the relatively harmless fianchetto system against the Grunfeld too, since that will be similar to your previous repertoire. 

Anyway, good luck, and let us know how things are progressing!
  
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Willempie
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #48 - 09/22/05 at 14:54:33
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well he didnt play 1d4 either Tongue
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #47 - 09/22/05 at 14:34:48
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(In a mock-serious tone: )

If you're gonna quote Fischer, quote him accurately: "1.P-K4, Best by test." Shocked

Well, apparently, Fischer failed his own test in the World Championship match!  Tongue  
  
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #46 - 09/22/05 at 10:20:12
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e4! (best by test) Grin 8) Grin
  

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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #45 - 09/22/05 at 10:08:46
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Controversial does not begin to desribe what this whole thread is about. I was thinking on mant different planes for this one.

For one who wants to limit the amount of positions that can arise after the first move i would recomend either the off beat flank openings like the Larsen or Sokolosky even the Dunst which we americans call 1.Nc3 any way.

As black it is much harder to limit posibilities. But a serious thought would be to think about well what openings are there that dont have 50 million anti lines!
I was thinking Modern,Owens,Pirc, or even the saint george which will cause a prolem all by it self for me mentioning it.

But as for the question of which is better i would leave that to the philophers who are not us. I mean its just depends on the man or woman playing the game. I play e4 and i know i have to face a lot of openings. I have cut out a lot of them by playing the crazy gambit stuff,smith-morra,alipin,Milnerberry,omega gambit. I mean thats the way to limit the thoery by playing things that try to throw the black player off right a way.

Im not saying it will work for every one but when i started school i couldnt keep spending 6-8 hours a day so i changed gears and still must look at different lines but not nearly as much as if say i played an open siclian. I will ocasionaly bring out the classical french though.

  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #44 - 09/22/05 at 09:07:10
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I'm not advocating that we all become encyclopaedias of openings.  In fact I'm hoping for just the opposite. That we are creative from the very beginning.  However, where clearly the best move is also one that has been studied in depth, we shouldn't be afraid to play it.  We should have confidence in ourselves that we can play the best moves regardless of how well Black is prepared.  In fact, our level of preparedness is probably going to be greater than those around us anyway just because we do spend the time here.
  
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #43 - 09/22/05 at 07:54:25
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My favourite theory is that the choice of 1. d4 or 1. e4 happens by luck and circumstance. Otherwise its very hard to explain how people came to feel "more comfortable" with one move more than the other. Very few are really comfortable with both first moves. Maybe it has something to do with the innate wiring of our brains that makes us like one move more than the other?!

Whether one likes positional/tactical play is not so relevant to the question, as it's well known that the sharpest opening belongs to 1. d4 (the Botvinnik Semi-Slav Grin) and the most boring opening belongs to 1. e4 (Giuoco Piannismo! Wink)!!

My point is, choose what your instinct tells you. Its all fated, the choice has probably been already made for you when your brain was being wired as a child! Smiley
  
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #42 - 09/22/05 at 04:44:21
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I fully agree with you castlerock.

Once in a while I play IMs and GMs but have no aspiration to do become one. All I want is to have  a decent repertoire for a 2000-2100 player. Something that puts black under pressure (even in CC games) and is more fun than the current c4/g3 lines I play.
  

Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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castlerock
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #41 - 09/22/05 at 04:30:21
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While Bogo was clearly a bit full of himself, this attitude of White playing with the advantage of the first move seems to have been lost a bit among non-professional grade players.  Let's fix that!


We can't fix that because it is not existent in the first place. Tongue

For example, how many times have you got 18…Nc6 or whatever in Classical KID? Or for that matter a 26th move improvement recommended by Chris Ward in Dragon? Well, the honest answer would be ‘zero’ if your opponent is rated below 2200. Wink

As part of my cutting edge theory study, I’m presently looking at Winnaver now. Out of curiosity, I transferred the lines to a chessbase file. There are 79 lines in 8.Qg4 Nbc6 lines alone! I didn’t even include 8…f5. At this count PTF3 should have 2000 line in Winnaver alone. What is the predicament of someone wanting learn (completely) KID and Sicilian Najdorf from black side and Open Sicilian, Nc3 French and Marshall Attack as white? What kind of a life someone who does that will lead? I would really pity him. Cry

The fact of the matter is, it is not done and it can’t be done, if you want to pass out with good grades or pay the bills and take care of family or girl friend! It’s a blessing in disguise!  GrinI don’t want to play chess if we are forced to dish out 25 moves from the book, play 5 or 6 original moves and then hand over the game to Nalimov Tablebase! Cheesy

The moment one player goes of book within 15 moves, both players go out of book and that’s fun. That’s the way out fathers played, that’s the way we play and that’s the way our children would play.

Now I’m feeling like a broken record when it comes to this topic (or perhaps about talent in chess) and I’ll try to avoid posting this view again.

All I want to say is that opening is important. To the extent of knowing the setups, general direction of the expected middle game and not stepping on to the mine fields. Beyond that, which particular choice of move number 13 will give 0.13 pawn advantage is meaningless. It’s nice to do it here to generally widen our knowledge so long as we don’t try to put it rigorously in practice.

@Inn2

I’m also like you, except that I prefer to go the Nf3,e3,Nbd2 way if I can’t get my Bg5 in.

  

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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #40 - 09/22/05 at 04:10:21
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MNb: Maybe I'm not the one to say so, because I haven't made the decision of e4 or d4, but I don't think your issues are the most important ones.

The variations you mention are some of those which are considered to be the best for black.

White can't force +/= in every possible line.

The most important issue is whether I as white feel comfortable in the opening phase. Do I reach interesting positions I think I understand? When just looking at a few games or a few lines some openings or opening lines might look very promising. When looking in more detail things are often not that clear.

That's the tricky part. To know if an opening is suitable for me, I need to get down to details and to know details of all possible opening choices takes far too much time.

All I know is that I don't like c4, d3, e4 vs the KI and I don't like Reti. I don't think white has anything in the lines Kosten recommends against the dragon reversed or in the e5/c6 lines. Also, the symmetric lines he recommends are dull.

Going back to MNb's comment, I think that the sicilian is a main issue. Open or Anti-sic lines? Anti-sic lines might be practical but not very exciting. Most Najdorfs and Sveshnikovs are interesting. Many lines are equal or unclear but still interesting for white. f4 was recommended in BTS2 and 3. I don't like that line. Bg5, Be3 or Be2 seem better. I'd probably go for the exf5, c3 line vs Sveshnikov. I'm not that comfortable in Hedgehogs and Maroczys even though early c4 often is recommended against Taimanov/Kan and Acc dragon. Petroff is a tough nut to crack. Early Nc3 or c4 are interesting choices. I'm also a bit worried about the french. I don't know if Nc3, Nd2 or e5 suits me. It's a tricky opening. I've played e5 in CC and blitz but the games have been rather unexciting.

I think both Qc2 Nimzo and a3 QI are interesting. I'm more worried about Grünfeld, KI and Benoni. Also the solid QG-lines is a concern.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #39 - 09/22/05 at 03:03:44
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Ewfim Bogoljubov had a famous motto:

"When I'm White, I win because I'm White.
When I'm Black I win because I'm Bogo!"

While Bogo was clearly a bit full of himself, this attitude of White playing with the advantage of the first move seems to have been lost a bit among non-professional grade players.  Let's fix that!
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #38 - 09/22/05 at 02:57:57
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This thread is beginning to sound like GMs Suba and Adorjan have won the theoretical argument of the first move.

They both argue that Black is better because he has the second move.  Suba uses the example of the childish game: 

Player 1:  Pick a number
Player 2:  27
Player 1:  28! I win!

From what I've read, it's miserable to be White because no matter how White plays Black is going to have a theoretical advantage in whatever opening he chooses.  I refuse to believe that (except when I'm playing Black of course  Wink ).  White has a statistical,  theoretical, and real advantage of the first move.  If White has to work hard to prove that advantage, Black has to work even harder to disprove it!

White shouldn't be afraid of his or her opponents' openings, rather White should play either 1.d4 or 1.e4 (or s/he can choose between several other moves that are probably just as good).  White should stake a claim to having the better position and be prepared to fight for it!  If that means studying the White side of openings you find distasteful, then so be it!

Ok, the practical side of me agrees that it's easier to play a few non-critical lines and avoid theory.  There's another weapon in White's arsenal though:  Move order!

White can pick and choose which openings to study and find ways to force his or her opponent into the lines White wants to play!  Here's an example for the 1.d4 player:

I was playing a friend who loves the Seville variation of the Grunfeld and the Benko as Black.  He also plays the King's Indian, but not as well as the other two.  I played 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 and here he thought for a while before playing 3...Bg7 4.e4! d6 5.d4 0-0 and we're into the KID Classical without my opponent even getting a chance to play his favorite lines.  Later on, I "offered" to go into a Grunfeld by playing 4.d4.  But since this would likely take the game into non-Exchange lines and I was obviously prepared, he decided to try the King's Indian again.  I scored 2-0.

White, to move, has the advantage.  It's almost a moral imperative for White to play that way, and not be afraid of his opponent's preparation!
  
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #37 - 09/22/05 at 01:46:51
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It is better to stick to a stable light on theory repertoire and then study cutting edge theory, one at a time.



This is a good point. Its something i've been practising all along unconsciously, until you mentioned it! Some "permanent stop-gaps" which I have relied upon while learning my main lines are the Nimzo  4. e3 + 5. Ne2 (against everthing), 4. Nd2/4. a4 Benko, and 3. f3 against the Grunfeld (fits well with my Samisch KID).

I do think that it is very difficult for White to be theory-less and still seek an initiative after 1. d4 d5  though, and imho there is no avoiding theory here, which is why most of my opening study have been dedicated to cutting edge QGD/slav lines.
  
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