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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1.e4 or 1.d4? (Read 31839 times)
lost highway
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #66 - 10/01/05 at 06:46:01
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Round 3 results for 1.e4 were 3 wins, 1 loss.  No more hehehe.

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Cresspahl
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #65 - 10/01/05 at 03:12:42
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hehehe.

White has played 1.e4 in all four of the first round games in San Luis.  White's combined score? 0-2-2!

Maybe White shoulda played 1.d4!



Smyslov_Fan,

Topalov actually played a Queens Indian in round 2 versus Anand. So the records are 1/1 or 100% for the d4-Aficionados!

Cheers,
Cresspahl Grin
  
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #64 - 10/01/05 at 00:43:28
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So what do you play against the Nimzo? When I was playing d4 and c4, it was probably the toughest defence for me to crack.

4. Qc2! must be the best move if its the unanimous choice of top 20 players (Kasparov, Topalov, Aronian, Dreev, Bareev, Sokolov etc.), only Bacrot sticks to 4. Nf3, and Kramnik plays both 4. Qc2 and 4. e3. I have resigned myself to learning the complicated 4. Qc2 theory (especially 4... d5 is a mess). Undecided

4. f3 is an old love, but nowadays only use it against weaker opposition.
4. e3 with 5. Ne2 against everything is a reliable backup weapon, and may even be good for White. But ultimately not aggresive enough for me to be a main weapon.

4. Nf3 would have been a great choice, if not for 4... c5! which for me leads to unpalatable positions for both colours.

I don't know what to think of 4. Bg5 yet.  Smiley
  
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Darthmambo
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #63 - 09/30/05 at 21:24:14
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I am facing a very similar problem with designing a complete repertoire.  I don't think the best solution is strictly following a narrow repertoire, as inevitably there will be certain positions that will not be appropriate in specific playing conditions.  I am beginning to think of the development of my repertoire in terms of several systems that are each appropriate to different circumstances or types of opponent.  For me, it difficult to narrow myself to one mode of opening systems, as a I have a broad interest.  (From your postal play, it seems that you have a broad interest also.)  Here's an example of a framework of systems I have considered.  You could think of each system as like a "gear" of a car, where lower gears are appropriate for lower speeds and higher gears for higher speeds.  (Though don't draw too many conclusions from the comparsion!  Smiley  )

Gear 1:
White:  (1.d4) Trompovsky (a Prie style repertoire)
Black:  Scandinavian, a6 Slav
Here each opening has a stylistic and structural similarity, and is efficient from the perspective of preparation and energy exerted over the board.  Of course, there are several drawbacks to playing this exclusively.  In some lines it might be difficult to beat weaker players, and against stronger players there are likely to be some "holes" in preparation due the improvisational nature of the openings.  I think this should be viewed as a back-up weapon that combines solidity with a small element of surpise.

Gear 2:
White:  (1.e4)  Rublevsky style; i.e. many of the lines Collins recommends his repertoire book (c3 Sicilian, Scotch, Panov-Botvinnik, Advance French)
Black:  Alekhine, Dutch Systems
In my opinion, the white repertoire is forceful from the white perspective and is excellent for efficiently beating weaker opposition.  The black systems are more ambitious than Gear 1, and likely offer better winning chances against weaker opposition.  In this system, it is very important to develop your own theory (especially as black).

The Gear 2 black openings carry a degree of risk, so it is good to a have a solid backup with the Gear 1 openings.  The Gear 2 white openings sometimes have the drawback of being too forceful, so it is sometimes good to have a system that is more improvisational to generate winning chances against well-prepared opposition.

"Higher gear" opening systems (i.e. main line openings) may be developed with postal play and independent analysis, and may at some point be used interchangeably with the lower gears:

Gear 3:
White: 1.d4 (Positional, Palliser style as in "Play d4")
Black:  Najdorf, Nimzo, X 2
The white systems can be adopted at an early stage with Gear 1, especially against 1...d5.

Gear 4:
White: 1.e4 (main line, as in the Anand repertoire by Khalifman)
Black:  Scheveningen Najdorf, KID, Benoni

Gear 3 complements Gear 1, and Gear 4 complements Gear 2.



What is "White:  (1.d4) Trompovsky (a Prie style repertoire)"? What does Prie reconmend in the tromp (I am really looking into it these days to help cut down on the study time and I like the positions)? Just wondering what his reconmendations are. Thanks.
  
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Darthmambo
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #62 - 09/30/05 at 21:20:38
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When considering picking up 1. d4, you should ask yourself two questions:

1) what to do against the nimzo
2) what to do against 1. d4 d5 (especially QGD and slav/semi-slav).

If you prefer facing the nimzo to the sicilian I guess 1. d4 is a better choice? i find this comparison apt, because the nimzo is somewhat like the sicilian... in that black has an extremely sound position and yet can play for a win.

The other comparison is: do you prefer to face the QGD and slav/semislav, or face the Petroff and Berlin Ruy?

for me 1. d4 is a no-brainer choice.


So what do you play against the Nimzo? When I was playing d4 and c4, it was probably the toughest defence for me to crack.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #61 - 09/28/05 at 23:09:00
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hehehe.

White has played 1.e4 in all four of the first round games in San Luis.  White's combined score? 0-2-2!

Maybe White shoulda played 1.d4!
  
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #60 - 09/24/05 at 06:48:37
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Just checked my ICC statistics, after changing to BlitzIn 2.5 I have

1.c4, 76 games, -25 in performance
1.e4, 43 games, +78 in performance

In OTB chess I have -16 after 48 games using 1.c4. Having a minus as white is not a good sign.
  

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woofwoof
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #59 - 09/23/05 at 10:17:15
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(In a mock-serious tone: )

If you're gonna quote Fischer, quote him accurately: "1.P-K4, Best by test." Shocked


Ya, I deliberately transcribed it to algebric for the benefit of tthe younger ones. I'll admit guilt to adding the brackets tho.

Seriously now..... for me it was a case of choosing whether I preferred meeting the QGD & Indians or meeting The Sicilians, French & CK. I dont mind meeting Indians , but meeting the QGD wasnt my cup of tea as I felt I needed more activity & open lines, & neither did I feel too comfortable playing against the Cambridge Springs. So e4 (P-K4) it is for me. As much as I have unhappy experiences against the French (Winawer especially) & CK, Both the French xchange & the Panno-Botvinnik vs CK does provide a more open & spacious condition otb which I enjoy.

This being the case....some of you who wrote abt knowing/deciding which defense you would prefer playing against as white makes a lot of sense for me & i do identify with that approach.


  

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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #58 - 09/23/05 at 00:30:18
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Inn and MNb,

I don't face the Benoni very often here.  There's a fair number of Benkos, but there are only two or three players in the region (several western states of the US) who play the Modern Benoni with any regularity.  And of those players, I can only think of one who's over 2200.  In my neck of the woods, there's only one active GM, and he's just recently moved to Denver.  We don't have that many high-powered opening gurus here. 

The openings that are hot against 1.d4 here are the Slav (and until about 5 yrs ago I was the only one who played it  Cry), Benko, KID, Dutch and recently a few QGA's.  There are one or two strong players who do play the Nimzo-Indian and QID, and one who will play almost anything other than what I just wrote. 

So at least here, even the Grunfeld isn't a big deal, and the Modern Benoni is only a big deal against one master.
  
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #57 - 09/23/05 at 00:01:59
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geez... I hadn't noticed that transposition, if only because most nimzo players never push their d-pawn two steps!

I agree with you too that Alias shouldn't fear the Grunfeld/KID, since White has a large leeway to choose the game's strategic direction. The Benoni is suprisingly strong though, in the hands of good tactical players this can be a headache, and here the choice for White is narrower: White has only 4 good systems to choose (from most to least aggressive): Taimanov, Modern Main Line, Samisch, Bf4.
  
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MNb
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #56 - 09/22/05 at 23:34:13
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NID: 4.Qc2 c5 5.dxc5 o-o 6.Bf4 Bxc5 7.e3 Nc6 8.Nf3 d5.
This is the same as 4.Nf3 Be7 5.Bf4 o-o 6.e3 c5 7.dxc5 Bxc5 8.Qc2 Nc6 in the QGD.
Of course Black has several options to deviate.
I assumed, this transposition was one of the reasons you are so fond of those Bf4 systems, Inn2!
  

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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #55 - 09/22/05 at 23:21:54
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Inn2 prefers a setup with 5.Bf4, which has the advantage that White can also use it against the NID.


How does one use 5. Bf4 against the nimzo?! I have resigned myself to learning the complicated Vienna and Ragozin, but White has all the attacking chances in these lines!
  
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #54 - 09/22/05 at 23:13:05
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Debatable. According to Tal after 10 moves or so the game becomes so complex, that the first move advantage has lost its meaning.


Does it take 10 moves to get complex? There are 239 million ways in which the first 4 legal moves can be made. No, I'm not kidding. Issac Asimov's strange facts has this info. Cheesy
  

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MNb
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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #53 - 09/22/05 at 22:57:16
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@Alias
"I'm more worried about Grünfeld, KI and Benoni. Also the solid QG-lines is a concern."
You shouldn't. On the Grünfeld last few years two relevant books have been published offering a White repertoire: How to get an edge against the G and Challenging the G. Of course there is more.
Against both the KI and the Benoni White has a wide choice, varying from 3/4 pawns attacks to positional g3 systems. Again you should be able to make a good choice.
Against the QGD White has some aggressive variations at his disposal too: Exchange variations with Nge2,f3, Rubinstein Variation 7.Qc2. Inn2 prefers a setup with 5.Bf4, which has the advantage that White can also use it against the NID.
About the same is true for the French. OK, 3.e5 does not suit you - it does not suit me either. As you already have pointed out, there is more.
Now I do not want to discuss the merits of all White options here. The point I want to make, is that every player should be able to find something to his taste against these Black defenses.

So I think your choice boils down to: NID 4.Qc2, QID 4.a3 or (anti)Petrov. What's more fun for you? After you have made your choice, forget about the rest, stick to it for a while and build your repertoire around it.
I am curious what will be the outcome.

@Smyslov_Fan
"White has a statistical,  theoretical, and real advantage of the first move."
Debatable. According to Tal after 10 moves or so the game becomes so complex, that the first move advantage has lost its meaning. I think it is more practical for amateurs to play in this spirit than to haunt a virtual edge as White. Alias' strive for interesting positions confirms this. Frankly I don not give much for moral imperatives. When playing chess I am a hedonist.

@Bravehoptoad
"test driving both 1. d4 and 1. e4 in blitz games."
This is really not a good idea in corr games.
  

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Re: 1.e4 or 1.d4?
Reply #52 - 09/22/05 at 16:01:38
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Now, on a slightly more serious note, and actually addressing Alias' question:

Both 1e4 and 1.d4 are great, superb, excellent, classic!  But, for a player coming off c4 and Nf3 systems, 1.d4 makes a much more gentle transition.  So in your case, if you've been playing a bunch of English Openings you should probably consider 1.d4 lines.  

To save yourself some work in the beginning, the Catalan is an excellent transitional opening from the English, and cuts down on a lot of your work.  Against the KID the Classical or the Saemisch is the way to go, so you may as well learn one of those.  The Grunfeld may be a special problem for you, so give Black the headache for a change, don't go into the Exchange variation.  The Classical (Bf4) System is still good.  You may also want to check out the relatively harmless fianchetto system against the Grunfeld too, since that will be similar to your previous repertoire.  

Anyway, good luck, and let us know how things are progressing!

You may have a point, but I seriously doubt that playing d4 is more akin to the english than e4. Me personally and I used to be a confirmed e4 player now sometimes vary with c4 or d4. I have noticed that I feel very "natural" with c4, especially in the e5 variations. Still whichever is picked it will mean a switch and it will cost some points in the beginning.
If Alias picks e4 I'd suggest a quick d4 reperoire against all the non e5 (eg open or Bb5 sicilian, main french, main caro) answers and the Ruy with the main lines if you feel confident and with d3 if you get surprised (eg the Schliemann).
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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