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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Chess & Intellectualism (Read 12061 times)
Willempie
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Re: Chess & Intellectualism
Reply #12 - 06/07/05 at 17:26:08
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But what about chess?  Is there a relationship between chess and intellectualism or culture?  Is chess just a game and a source of entertainment?  If so, how do we evaluate its role?  If chess is more than just a game, what role does it play?  We've talked about chess and IQ in other threads; how do these relate with intellectual culture more broadly conceived?

You have Euwe, Lasker, Tal, Botwinnik and probably Karpov as a mix of academics and chess. You have Fischer, Kasparov and probably some more Wch (Petrosjan springs to my mind)as no connection between academics (and sometimes reality) and chess. And then you have the bonvivants like Capablanca, Spassky and Aljechin, who focused everything on chess when they needed it and for the rest didnt care.

Wink
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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HgMan
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Re: Chess & Intellectualism
Reply #11 - 06/07/05 at 16:03:30
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It is very self-serving to call other's opinions on issues unintelligent. 


I'm not sure I follow, but I'm pretty sure I didn't challenge anyone's intelligence or lack thereof.  I was simply trying to make a connection between chess and intellectual culture.

I deliberately tried to tone down the nature of the preliminary message in this thread, but I was very glad to see Markovich's post address the history of anti-intellectualism in America, which goes right back to de Tocqueville commenting on that as being a characteristic feature of the new American republic--and central to the tenets of American democracy.  Markovich's point also raised the important point that American science has long been dominated by immigrants.  Just look at the key physicists in the Manhattan Project.  The question of religiosity as a dominant feature of contemporary American culture is also an important one, that I, personally, find quite troubling, particularly in light of its evangelical rhetoric in wartime, but I don't think I implied in my message that people who believed in creationism or intelligent design were buffoons.  I would say, however, that the religious right have orchestrated an incredibly effective backlash against intellectuals and mainstream science.

Further, I don't think it's particularly self-serving to observe that intellectualism has been in decline in the United States and, quite literally, under attack recently.   

But what about chess?  Is there a relationship between chess and intellectualism or culture?  Is chess just a game and a source of entertainment?  If so, how do we evaluate its role?  If chess is more than just a game, what role does it play?  We've talked about chess and IQ in other threads; how do these relate with intellectual culture more broadly conceived?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Ah
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Re: Chess & Intellectualism
Reply #10 - 06/07/05 at 15:37:04
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As a side note, just because something is not scientific does not make it inaccurate or not true.  The scientifice method is based on repeatability.  A hypothosis is tested, and the for it to be confirmed it must be able to be tested by others under the same conditions.  It works very well.

However, using the scientific method you can't prove things such as whether Abraham Lincoln ever existed.  Since it is not repeatable, it cannot be proven using the scientific method.  Other methods such as the legal/historical method must be used where you look at the weight of the evidence and not on repeatability.

It is a vast error to equate empiricism and intellectualism.

Just a thought

Ah

  
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Billy Cember
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Re: Chess & Intellectualism
Reply #9 - 06/07/05 at 14:20:32
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At the moment, the United States is rejecting evolutionary theory in public schools, charging university professors with bias, and seeking to abolish the tenure system at universities (which was designed to ensure that academics could use free speech without losing their jobs).  In "Old" Europe, these institutions are less under attack.  This is perhaps a rather simplistic or anecdotal sort of evidence, but it raises an interesting question about the relationship between chess, culture, and politics.  I'd be interested for people's thoughts...


It is very self-serving to call other's opinions on issues unintelligent. 
  
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Willempie
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Re: Chess & Intellectualism
Reply #8 - 06/07/05 at 02:58:39
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Willempie is only partly correct on the Dutch Minister of Education. She indeed intended to (re)introduce ID-theory on Dutch Secondary School as an alternative to evolution theory - if I may trust Dutch christian newspaper Trouw.

Well basically her statement was basicly as you say though certainly not that specific, however in typical christian democratic fashion she later said that that was not what she had meant, she had only meant to start a debate between scientists (prompted by that idiotic law thingy on the subject in Kansas iirc). 

I think that will make it much clearer for the foreigners Wink
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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MNb
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Re: Chess & Intellectualism
Reply #7 - 06/06/05 at 22:47:24
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The question Markovich asked, has been settled by philosophers for a long time now. Call it creator, call it intelligent design, it all belongs to metaphysica. This should be separated from "real" sciences like biology and physics completely, as in metaphysica empirical evidence is impossible by definition.
Moreove finding shortcomings on a scientific theory does not prove anything. The universe is about 5 billion of years old; human science with a lot of optimism 5000 years. We cannot pretend to have found all answers in this short time.
Willempie is only partly correct on the Dutch Minister of Education. She indeed intended to (re)introduce ID-theory on Dutch Secondary School as an alternative to evolution theory - if I may trust Dutch christian newspaper Trouw.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Willempie
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Re: Chess & Intellectualism
Reply #6 - 06/06/05 at 08:15:26
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Not disagreeing with you. The only scientific part of it is where they try to point out loopholes in the evolution theory (and usually not very convincing). They dont create a scientific theory themselves. 
I was merely responding to the statement about our minister.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Markovich
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Re: Chess & Intellectualism
Reply #5 - 06/06/05 at 08:00:13
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I'd like to see her go for a host of reasons, but that is not what she said. She said something along the lines that there should be a debate about the intelligent design theory (which also without much scientific backing is not the same as the creation "theory") in academic circles.


We have on the one hand an acutal theory, supported by a vast body of fossil evidence and evidence from direct observation of the biosphere, explaining (or with the potential to explain) essentially all variations in life on earth.  It is not, precisely, a theory of life's origin, but it does imply that the humblest conceivable origin could have given rise to everything now living, in its vast complexity.   

We have on the other hand the bald assertion that this could not have happened without supervening intelligence.  No mechanism is specified (apparently, a miracle occurred); no evidence for the supposed miracle is pointed to; the entire "evidence" consists of criticism of explanatory power of the standard account.  But even if the standard account somehow failed utterly, the conclusion would not be that intelligent design were true; the conclusion would be that no satisfactory account existed.

The question that I would love to direct to the proponents of "intelligent design" is, what evidence could possibly be brought that would cause you to agree that life did NOT originate by intelligent design?  You do not have a theory if you do not have potential disconfirmation.

We do not, of course, have a theory; we have a religious sect grasping at straws.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Willempie
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Re: Chess & Intellectualism
Reply #4 - 06/06/05 at 04:04:35
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AND... it would seem a bit overoptimistic to think Europe is free from all that. Recently the Dutch Minister of Education proposed to re-introduce the biblical version of 'evolution'...

I'd like to see her go for a host of reasons, but that is not what she said. She said something along the lines that there should be a debate about the intelligent design theory (which also without much scientific backing is not the same as the creation "theory") in academic circles.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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elspringer
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Re: Chess & Intellectualism
Reply #3 - 06/06/05 at 02:31:15
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AND... it would seem a bit overoptimistic to think Europe is free from all that. Recently the Dutch Minister of Education proposed to re-introduce the biblical version of 'evolution'...
  
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MNb
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Re: Chess & Intellectualism
Reply #2 - 06/05/05 at 21:59:32
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Especially the unilateralism explains a lot of anti-USA tendencies in Europe - and probably in the rest of the world too.
History teaches us, that a world power threatens to decline if the development of science comes to a halt. The Roman and the Chinese empire are good examples.
But I am not sure, if the place of chess in a society is a good indicator. Especially the example of the Soviet-Union is complicated and dubious.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Markovich
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Re: Chess & Intellectualism
Reply #1 - 06/05/05 at 21:53:43
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Interesting topic.  America is famous, of course, for its long history of anti-intellectualism.  I think it's not by accident that most of the strongest "American" players are immigrants from the Slavic countries.  What sustained American science (not chess, of course) in the past was a vast material commitment by government and industry. 

But that's fading now; American commitment to scientific research is vastly reduced, especially in the life sciences.  I think that the swing toward religiosity (I do not say, toward religion) and absolutism, and away from science and reason, is a deeply disturbing aspect of American society which, especially in light of this nation's willingness to use its enormous power unilaterally, should be of grave concern to the whole world.
  

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Chess & Intellectualism
06/04/05 at 14:28:20
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Chessbase recently posted a very interesting article from Prospect about the relationship between chess and intellectualism, arguing that the place of chess in European culture reflects the rise and fall of the educated elite.  The URL is: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2431. ; It got me to thinking about the success of chess in the former Soviet Union, where chess and (to a degree) intellectualism were encouraged; chess was also a safe outlet for intellectual energies among the country's brighter citizens who might otherwise have been persecuted.  While the article examines the European example, I wonder if it might be applied to the United States?  Intellectualism in America has been in serious decline since the 1970s and drastically so since 1980.  This theory would overlap with Fischer's withdrawal from chess (not that we should read too much into the correlation of this), and the almost complete ascendency of American immigrants taking over the highest ranks of chess in the United States.  Exceptions, of course, exist, but it seems as though they prove--rather than discredit--the rule.  I've noticed some interesting under-currents throughout a number of threads on this forum that discuss the differences of style/approach/interest/etc. of chess on either side of the Atlantic, and I wonder to what extent the role or place of intellectualism plays a role?

At the moment, the United States is rejecting evolutionary theory in public schools, charging university professors with bias, and seeking to abolish the tenure system at universities (which was designed to ensure that academics could use free speech without losing their jobs).  In "Old" Europe, these institutions are less under attack.  This is perhaps a rather simplistic or anecdotal sort of evidence, but it raises an interesting question about the relationship between chess, culture, and politics.  I'd be interested for people's thoughts...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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