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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..) (Read 39641 times)
Willempie
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #9 - 06/23/05 at 18:48:02
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Dont disagree with the sentiment, but studying endgames on your own isnt the best way. There are often so many possibilities that just studying doesnt work, you have to see why certain (sometimes stupid) things dont work.

For example the diagram from Klick, I would never ever go into that pawn endgame for the simple fact that you dont have the opposition and pawn exchanges screw you up. I wouldnt know how to win the rook endgame, but I would start with Ra3.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Kevin
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #8 - 06/23/05 at 17:17:38
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There is a large chapter in "Secrets of Pawnless Endings" on your "headache" ending. But I have found the coverage in "Fundamental Chess Endings" to be sufficient.
  
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Klick
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #7 - 06/23/05 at 16:00:14
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I honestly think that a chess-player miss out on a lot by neglecting endgame-play. The true value of endgame-knowledge is not in playing out the positions themselves, but in the fact that you, if you have such knowledge, then in the middlegame will be able to assess how to trade down to a drawn or won endgame. I cannot stress this enough. It is not enough to be able to assess the endgame when you first are there, but you must assess possible arising endgames already in the middlegame and sometimes before. What if you in the middlegame are obviously worse, but then see a possibility of sacrificing a bishop for your opponents remaining pawns, resulting in a theoretically drawn position? Not much help if you don`t know how to defend it, is it?  Nijboer-Volkov and Kosteniuk-Onischuk being perfect examples. The same applies to the Rook vs Queen endgame. (Svidler had obviously not looked much at this endgame and subsequently were not able to win). When you are again obviously worse you could find yourself sacrificing to reach such an ending, but not much help if you don`t know how to make the most of it. These are just piece-endings, which are "relatively" seldom.  But somewhat the same applies for "simple" things like pawn-endings which are often not simple at all. And rook-endings often balance on the edge of win, draw or loss. 

In the following winning position a world-elite player once assessed the endgame after rookexchange with Rf5 and Rxg5 as won. To his great surprise it only drawed. Would be nice to know before playing it, not? 





I allow myself to quote Chris Baker from his book Learn from your chess-mistakes:"In my opinion, the ending is the one part of the game that really `sorts out the men from the boys`. Having had to `fight`their way through the opening and middlegame, in the ending many people just go through the motions. Part of the reason for this is that with reduced material on the board players seem to feel that the play has become trivialised and that the outcome to the game should be `obvious`. With this sort of attitude they are setting themselves up for a fall."

I couldn`t agree more and I rejoice when realizing how many neglect this part of the game. If I don`t beat them in the middlegame, I will in the endgame.  Grin   And I really do think that I learn more on how to play chess by studying the endgame than by studying the opening. I become a stronger player by studying the endgame. By studying the opening too much I can become what Ignacio Marin calls an erudite and not much more.

___________________________________________

With regards to the "headache ending" am I having a hard time finding some material on it. Reuben Fine`s "Basic Chess Endings" is not really very instructive or enlightening. On the internet I have just found some general discussions along the lines "How many moves needed to win from this position?" I will keep looking though. Maybe Dvoretsky or Karsten Muller`s books have something useful on it?  8)

____________________________________________

R+K vs. R+K+2pawns (bishop & rook pawn on the same side) would surely be fun and interesting to look at some time. Fine says;

" The drawing idea is simply this: "White cannot hold on to both Pawns if he wishes to try to win, but must sacrifice one of them to divert the Black King. It stands to reason that he will sacrifice the RP. But we have already seen that R+BP vs. R is a draw when the Black King is on the edge of the board except for one special position. Consequently Black need only avoid this special position to draw."

___________________________________________



  
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Kevin
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #6 - 06/23/05 at 15:28:35
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Endings can be fun to practice...when I first learned the N+B+K vs. K, my friends and I would play 2 minutes to a side from arbitrary positions. When you get pretty good at it, 2 minutes is plenty of time to get the mate. R+B+K vs. R+K could also be fun that way. Another fun one would be R+K vs. R+K+2pawns (bishop & rook pawn on the same side): That is supposed to be a draw but sometimes GM's lose.
  
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MNb
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #5 - 06/23/05 at 08:56:01
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Of course endgame skills are as important as opening knowledge. The big problem with studying endgames, is that some specific times so seldom occur. I have never had an endgame of K+2B or 2N versus K. I have never had an endgame of K+R versus K+B or N either. So I simply do not understand why spending hours and hours to learn them.
As far as I know there are only few books on practical endgame play. One of the first was Averbach's What every player should know about the endgame. That little book took me about two hours and gave me enough elementary knowledge to avoid playing like a gorilla.
So my opinion: most endgames must be studied for fun in the first place, not for practice, including the "headache endgame" of this thread. I am curious to learn about other opinions.
  
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #4 - 06/22/05 at 21:56:43
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It will be nice to see more instructional material on Chesspub, even on the endgame (perhaps on the gold plus section). There was an interesting article in New in Chess on Bahr's rules many years ago. It was the first time someone got me interested in the endgame, which was really quite a feat for a young kid.
  
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Kevin
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #3 - 06/22/05 at 16:39:30
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I got the ending once and lost. That was after I had studied the ending a little bit, but I forgot the method during the game. I had originally studied the "Cochrane defence", because the endgame book I read said this was the defence that "most GM's preferred." So I should prefer it too, right?! Well...

The cochrane defence from what I remember, is this ~15 move sequence that leads to the position being rotated 90 degrees. And so if you keep playing the defence, the repetition of position or the 50 move rule kicks in. Essentially there is no way for the side with the bishop to make progress. But try remembering those 15 moves 6 months after you first looked at it.

The other defence is the "second-rank defence", which involves a stalemate trick that is available just when it appears that the defender is going to get mated. Much easier to remember, but I looked at it over a year ago, and I must admit, I'm not sure if I would do any better than I did last time. 

Maybe these same reasons are why even the GM's sometimes lose that ending.

I would be interested in playing the ending with 5 minutes to a side on ICC several times. That's probably the only way it will stick with me...since repetition is the mother of all learning, and all that...
  
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #2 - 06/22/05 at 15:52:51
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Here is another game which resulted in the R+B vs. R, and again the side with R+B won.


[Event "Corus-B"]
[Site "Wijk aan Zee"]
[Date "2005.01.15"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Kosteniuk,Alexandra"]
[Black "Onischuk,Alexander"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C65"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5 5.c3 0-0 6.d4 Bb6 7.Bg5 h6 8.Bh4 d6 
9.Qd3 Bd7 10.Nbd2 a6 11.Bc4 exd4 12.cxd4 g5 13.e5 gxh4 14.Qg6+ Kh8 15.Qxh6+ Nh7 16.Ne4 f5 
17.Nfg5 Qe7 18.Nf6 Qg7 19.Qxh7+ Qxh7 20.Ngxh7 Rfd8 21.Ng5 dxe5 22.Nf7+ Kg7 23.dxe5 Nxe5 24.Nh5+ Kg6 
25.Nxe5+ Kxh5 26.Be2+ Kg5 27.Nf7+ Kf6 28.Nxd8 Rxd8 29.Rad1 Re8 30.Bf3 Bc8 31.Rfe1 Rg8 32.Bd5 Rh8 
33.Bb3 Bc5 34.Rd3 Bd6 35.Bd5 b6 36.g3 Bd7 37.Rf3 Rh5 38.Re4 hxg3 39.hxg3 f4 40.Rfxf4+ Bxf4 
41.Rxf4+ Ke7 42.Rd4 c5 43.Rd2 b5 44.f4 c4 45.Kf2 a5 46.Ke3 Rh3 47.Rg2 Rh1 48.a4 b4 
49.Bxc4 Bxa4 50.g4 Bc6 51.Rg3 Re1+ 52.Kd2 Rb1 53.b3 a4 54.Re3+ Kf8 55.bxa4 Bxa4 56.Bd3 Rb2+ 
57.Kc1 Rg2 58.g5 Be8 59.Re6 b3 60.Rb6 Rg4 61.Rf6+ Kg7 62.Bc4 Ba4 63.Bd5 Rg3 64.Kb2 Re3 
65.Rb6 Re2+ 66.Ka3 Ra2+ 67.Kb4 Rf2 68.Rb7+ Kg6 69.Be4+ Kh5 70.Rf7 Be8 71.Rf8 b2 72.Kc3 Bg6 
73.Rh8+ Kg4 74.Bxg6 Rxf4 75.Kxb2 Kxg5 76.Bd3 Kf6 77.Re8 Kf7 78.Re3 Kf6 79.Kc3 Rh4 80.Bc4 Kf5 
81.Kb4 Kf4 82.Re7 Rh5 83.Kc3 Re5 84.Rf7+ Rf5 85.Re7 Re5 86.Rh7 Re3+ 87.Bd3 Re8 88.Rh4+ Ke3 
89.Rh1 Rc8+ 90.Bc4 Rd8 91.Be6 Rd3+ 92.Kc4 Rd4+ 93.Kc5 Ra4 94.Rh3+ Kf2 95.Bc4 Ra8 96.Kd4 Ra4 
97.Rc3 Ra7 98.Ke4 Rh7 99.Rf3+ Kg2 100.Bd5 Rh4+ 101.Ke5 Kg1 102.Be4 Rh2 103.Rf4 Rd2 104.Kf5 Rf2 
105.Bf3 Rb2 106.Rh4 Rb8 107.Kf4 Kf2 108.Rh2+ Ke1 109.Be4 Rb3 110.Bf3 Rb4+ 111.Kg3 Rd4 112.Re2+ Kf1 
113.Re3 Rd2 114.Ra3 Rd4 115.Re3  1-0

  
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Willempie
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #1 - 06/22/05 at 11:25:49
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Some endgame indeed Shocked
Even after looking at it for an hour now, I cant really see what is going on.

I also started studying endgames (with Flear's books and the big book by Muller), but it is quite tough to do so, especially on your own. I am currently plowing through rook and pawn vs rook, but that already is very difficult. There is a very good column on the endgame at chesscafe, though a bit above my level.

It is a pity that the endgame doesnt really fit in the chesspublishing format as it is probably too static and broad.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Klick
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Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
06/22/05 at 08:38:27
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Chess-openings are interesting, sure. No doubt about it. But what about the endgame?  Roll Eyes I think the endgame is a part of the game that many (even strong) players neglect out of "ill will", i.e. they do not "have the time" (or for some other reason) to do some really serious work there.

It got me all thinking when I some years ago read the following article on Chessbase on the difficulties of winning with Queen vs. Rook: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=75
 Subsequently I tried to look further into this endgame with a friend and did indeed find out that it was incredibly difficult to win with correct play from the defending side.

Realizing the depth and all the points that were available to gain by correct endgame-play I`ve continued at slow pace to study the endgame, starting out with just "pure" pawn-play, which also is not clearly easy always.

Just yesterday I were watching the European Championship, giving special attention to the Nijboer-
Volkov game. The game, itself interesting, ended in a R+B vs.R endgame, which the superior side to my great surprise went on to win. I discovered that the ending, although usually a theoretical draw often practically wins. The superior side wins in about 50% of the cases due to the defender not finding the best continuation.

Now this was completely new to me and just shows how interesting endgame-play is and how much can be gained by studying it.

I therefore thought that even though this is an opening-theory site it would be interesting to dedicate at least a small topic in the forum to the endgame  Wink

If anyone are interested in studying/training endgame-play with me on ICC, feel free to message me or post.

For you others I would be interested to hear your opinion on the R+B vs. R ending. Benko called this the "headache ending"  8)

_____________________________________
For interested readers, here is the Nijober-Volkov game:

[Event "European Chmp. 05"]
[White "Nijboer, F."]
[Black "Volkov, S."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C06"]
[PlyCount "342"]
[EventDate "2005.06.21"]
[SourceDate "2005.06.21"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. c3 c5 6. Bd3 Nc6 7. Ne2 cxd4 8. cxd4
f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Nf3 Bd6 11. O-O O-O 12. Bf4 Bxf4 13. Nxf4 Ne4 14. Ne2 Rxf3
15. gxf3 Ng5 16. Kh1 e5 17. Qb3 Kh8 18. Bb5 exd4 19. Rad1 Qf6 20. f4 Ne6 21.
Qg3 Bd7 22. Rg1 Rf8 23. f5 Nc5 24. f3 Bxf5 25. Bxc6 bxc6 26. Nxd4 Bg6 27. Qg5
Qf7 28. Rge1 h6 29. Qe7 Nd3 30. Qxf7 Rxf7 31. Rxd3 Bxd3 32. Re3 Bb1 33. Nxc6
Rc7 34. Nd4 Rc1+ 35. Kg2 Rd1 36. Re8+ Kh7 37. Ne6 Kg6 38. Rd8 Kf6 39. Nc5 Bxa2
40. b3 Ke5 41. Ra8 Kd4 42. b4 Kc4 43. Rxa7 Rd2+ 44. Kg3 Kxb4 45. Ne6 g6 46. Rg7
Rd1 47. Kf2 Bb1 48. h4 Kc3 49. Rc7+ Kb2 50. Rb7+ Kc2 51. Rc7+ Kd2 52. Rc5 Ba2
53. Nf4 d4 54. Nxg6 Rc1 55. Ra5 Rc2 56. Nf4 d3 57. Kg3 Bc4 58. Rh5 Ke3 59. Nxd3
Bxd3 60. Rxh6 Rc8 61. Re6+ Kd4 62. h5 Bf5 63. Re7 Rh8 64. Kf4 Bb1 65. Rd7+ Kc5
66. Rg7 Rf8+ 67. Kg4 Kd5 68. h6 Ke5 69. Re7+ Kf6 70. Rb7 Bf5+ 71. Kh4 Rd8 72.
Rb6+ Be6 73. Kg3 Rh8 74. Ra6 Rxh6 75. Ra8 Rh3+ 76. Kg2 Rh7 77. Rf8+ Ke5 78. Kg3
Rg7+ 79. Kf2 Bf5 80. Ra8 Bd7 81. Ra7 Kf4 82. Rb7 Rh7 83. Rb4+ Ke5 84. Rb7 Rf7
85. Kg3 Kd6 86. Rb4 Bc6 87. Rf4 Ra7 88. Rf6+ Kd5 89. Kf2 Ra2+ 90. Kg3 Rc2 91.
Rf5+ Kd4 92. Rf6 Bd5 93. Rf8 Rc7 94. Kf2 Re7 95. Rf4+ Kd3 96. Rf5 Rd7 97. Rf4
Rd8 98. Rf5 Kd2 99. Rf4 Bb3 100. Rf6 Bc2 101. Rf7 Bd3 102. Re7 Bc4 103. Re4 Rc8
104. Kg3 Bd3 105. Re7 Rc2 106. Re8 Kd1 107. Re7 Bf1 108. Rd7+ Ke1 109. Re7+ Be2
110. Kg2 Rc8 111. Rg7 Rf8 112. Rg3 Bd1 113. Rh3 Ke2 114. Rh4 Ke3 115. Re4+ Kd3
116. Re7 Bxf3+ 117. Kg3 Be4 118. Kg4 Ke3 119. Kg5 Rf1 120. Rc7 Rf5+ 121. Kg4
Ra5 122. Re7 Ra6 123. Rg7 Ra5 124. Re7 Rb5 125. Rg7 Bf3+ 126. Kg3 Rb1 127. Rg5
Be4 128. Rg4 Bf5 129. Rg5 Ke4 130. Kh4 Rh1+ 131. Kg3 Rh3+ 132. Kf2 Kf4 133. Rg8
Rh7 134. Rf8 Rh2+ 135. Ke1 Ke4 136. Kd1 Kd3 137. Ke1 Ke4 138. Kd1 Rf2 139. Ke1
Rg2 140. Kd1 Kd3 141. Ke1 Be4 142. Rf2 Rg1+ 143. Rf1 Rg8 144. Rf2 Re8 145. Rd2+
Ke3 146. Re2+ Kf4 147. Kf2 Rh8 148. Rd2 Rh1 149. Re2 Rh3 150. Rd2 Bd3 151. Ke1
Re3+ 152. Kd1 Rf3 153. Kc1 Ke3 154. Rh2 Rf1+ 155. Kb2 Kd4 156. Rh4+ Be4 157.
Kb3 Rb1+ 158. Ka4 Rb8 159. Rg4 Kd5 160. Ka3 Ke5 161. Rh4 Kd4 162. Rg4 Rb1 163.
Ka2 Rb5 164. Ka3 Kc3 165. Rg3+ Kc4 166. Rg4 Rb3+ 167. Ka2 Re3 168. Kb2 Re2+
169. Ka3 Kc3 170. Ka4 Bd3 171. Ka5 Re6 *
« Last Edit: 06/27/05 at 11:58:06 by Klick »  
There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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