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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..) (Read 39651 times)
MNb
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #39 - 07/17/05 at 21:19:45
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Do you have the correct position in front? 
39.Bd2 Kd6 40.b4 Ke5 is not legitimate because of the White rook on h5.
Moreover you also have to find a Black win after 39.Ke3 Kd6 40.Bc3 and 41.b4.
My conclusion remains: a solid draw.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #38 - 07/17/05 at 17:45:35
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Ok,

Here's my most up-to-date conclusions about the endgame we've been looking at.  Following on from 40...Ke5, there is only one move, as far as I can tell, that doesn't lose more or less instantly for White.  White can't move either his B or R, and pawn moves only help Black, so he has to play 41.Ke3! gaining the opposition and threatening moves such as Rh5+ and Bc3+.  The obvious ways forward for Black all force immediate draws or even lose.  I am at an impasse here, and despite having earlier stated that I thought Black was winning, I can't find any way to prove it right now. Embarrassed  I'd still prefer to play Black, but I don't see a way to make progress.  And if Black can't use his initiative, then the game really is drawn.  Bummer.  Sad If you want specific lines, let me know.  They're pretty straightforward, unless of course I'm missing something.

Cheers!
  
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MNb
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #37 - 07/11/05 at 06:14:27
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"This has really been interesting"
What do you mean? It still is. I will take a look at 39.Bd2 Kd6 40.b4 Ke5.
I do not agree with you on the subject of trading pieces. My point is, that after exchanging rooks White gets chances to create a second passed pawn on the a-file and can advance the passed f-pawn. The king will block on d3. This way White makes optimal use of the long-ranged bishop. I think you underestimate the power of the bishop vs the knight in endings with pawns on all fronts.
At the other hand I must admit, that I feel more comfortable in light-piece endings than in rook endings, so I am not sure who is prejudiced after all.
I must say, that I am a bit disappointed about the lack of interest among other regular writers. First I read so many posts about the importance of endgame skills. Now I am one of the very few involved in and endgame debate?!
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #36 - 07/10/05 at 23:11:59
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MNb wrote
Quote:
39.Bd2 Kd6 40.b4 b6 41.Rh6 Ke5 42.Rh5+ Kd4 43.Rh6 as Re7 44.Be3+ Kc4 45.Bxb6 Kxb4 46.Rh4+ is clearly better for White? 


Yes, I agree.

My previous note had the wrong move number.  I am pretty sure that Black only draws after 40...b6.  Instead, 40...Ke5 (not 41....Ke5 as I previously wrote) remains unclear.  I still think BLACK has enough winning chances to continue playing, but this is a critical improvement for White.   

If it goes into a Rook ending, I think the drawing chances skyrocket but if White carelessly trades rooks, keeping the minor pieces on, without creating a passer on the Q-side, he probably loses.  I've looked at some possible pawn endings, and White's king is just too passively placed to survive any pure pawn endings unless he can get that a-pawn passed or win the h-pawn for the b-pawn.   

This has really been interesting, Cheesy I'd like to see more strong players analyse these endgames with us.  I'm sure that a thorough study of this endgame could take weeks, Cry and the more thoughtful players we have working on this, the better! 8)

  
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MNb
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #35 - 07/10/05 at 22:21:44
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What about 39.Bd2 Kd6 40.b4 b6 41.Rh6 Ke5 42.Rh5+ Kd4 43.Rh6 as Re7 44.Be3+ Kc4 45.Bxb6 Kxb4 46.Rh4+ is clearly better for White?
And 39.Ke3 Kd6 40.Bc3 Rf7 41.b4 is not solved either - here no march via d4.

Kevinludwig: I am interested indeed - I guess, that White starts with 39.f3 ?

Smyslov_fan: I am looking forward to it. It does not happen that often, that I get endgame training for free!
  

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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #34 - 07/10/05 at 16:34:54
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@Kevinludwig:

That's an interesting position, let's devote another thread to it so we don't get confused.

Regarding the Korchnoi-Ponomariov position, 

We seem to agree that the critical position lies in the variation Bd2 with b4.

Here's the position:

White:  Kf2 Rh5 Bd2
Pawns:  a4 b4 f3 h2

Black: Kd6 Rg7 Ne6
Pawns:  b7, c6 d5 h7

BLACK TO MOVE


Here's what I first wrote:

I think Black's chances of winning are greater than White's chances of drawing after
40...b6. Shocked  This threatens c5, and the resulting pawn structure is, if anything, even worse for White than what happened in the game!  

I've now checked the variations with Fritz, and this time, 41.Rh6 is actually a good move for White!  It threatens both Bf4 and Be3 (hitting the "wonderful" pawn on b6).  This is enough to wipe out most of Black's winning chances.  If Black tries too hard to win this position, he could even lose!  

Therefore, after 41.Rh6! Ke5 looks just about forced instead of pushing the b-pawn.  There are two ideas at work for Black here: a) unpin the N without blocking the rook's path to the a-file b) advance the king, via e5-d4-c4 to the Q-side and try to weaken things from behind.  Of course, timing is everything, but I still like Black's chances.  If I was Black I would certainly play on.  My guess is that Black has about a 40% winning chance, 35% drawing chance, and 15% losing chance.  At the highest levels, those losing chances diminish down to near zero, but I still like Black's chances (slightly) to win.


BTW:  On Tuesday, I'll come up with another endgame from TWIC and start it on a separate thread. Smiley
« Last Edit: 07/10/05 at 23:00:24 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #33 - 07/10/05 at 00:32:11
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I have another ending for everyone to consider:
White has pawns on f2, g3, h4, a6. Ke3, Ra7.
Black has pawns on f7, g6, h5, Kf6, Ra2.
The position occurred in Tal-Gipslis, 1983. Tal played 1. Ra8 and the game was soon drawn. But it turns out that white is winning. 

There is actually published analysis on this, and I first saw it a few years ago, and spent a while looking at it. The position is interesting, because it is the sort of thing that might come up in a real game. I'll tell where the analysis is online if there is any interest.
  
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kevinludwig
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #32 - 07/08/05 at 00:28:42
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Not that this adds much to the discussion, but I also came to the conclusion that everything looked correct up to move 39. Then my first guess was 39. Bb6, since it tries to hold up the pawns with the bishop, followed by 40. b4. Then I decided that maybe 39. Bd2 would place the bishop better, so 39. Bd2 Kd6 40. b4. (Exactly what Mnb came up with). This looks pretty easy to draw. Fritz wants to play 40. c5, but liquidating the queenside pawns is just what white wants. If all the queenside pawns come off, black is left with a passed d-pawn, and this isn't enough for a win, because white's king is well placed to blockade the pawn (which basically guarantees the draw in any rook ending).
  
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MNb
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #31 - 07/07/05 at 05:35:22
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For one thing White must prevent the pawn roller and play b4. Without a board I am not certain, but 39.Bd2 Kd6 40.b4 is the first thing I will look at. Compare 39.Ke3 Kd6 40.Bc3 Rf7 41.b4. I am not sure, if the bishop is better on c3 or on d2.
Fritz' 39.Bd2 Kd6 40.a5? definitely sucks, as it rules out any counterplay with b4-b5 and puts a pawn on a black square. So does b2-b4, but the difference is that c6-c5 is hindered and that b4-b5 remains possible.

A few hours later, with a board, it is clear to me that b2-b4 preventing c6-c5 is the key move to equality.
« Last Edit: 07/07/05 at 20:37:27 by MNb »  

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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #30 - 07/06/05 at 23:27:38
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Here's a sample line that I found with the help of Fritz.

39.  Bd2! Kd6 40.a5 (Fritz) c5! 41.Rh6 (White is in virtual zugzwang.  I don't know what else White can do here.) Rf7 42.Ke3 Kd7 (d4?? 43.Ke4! +/- or even winning for White) 43.Rh5 Nf4! 44.Rh6 Ng6! and now Fritz plays the horrible looking 45.b4 but couldn't hold the ending in a quick analysis.
  
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #29 - 07/06/05 at 23:09:03
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Thanks, MNb, for including the entire game.  BTW, it was the 8th and penultimate, not final round.   

I made an even more important mistake:  I meant to type:  e6, not e7.  With the pawn on e7, it is 

BLACK to MOVE

MNb, your suggested improvement certainly seems to gain a tempo on the line played, and Fritz prefers it to 39.Bb4+  However, I don't see how it actually improves White's position enough to save the game.  Black is threatening to attack the f-file with the N and R.  In this particular game, I would definitely prefer the centralised N to the peripheral B, and Korchnoi obviously felt the same way. 

What this means is that I think if White has salvation it will be precisely in the Rook and Pawn ending that you found so distasteful.  White neeeds to slow down the c-pawn.  I think his fatal error was playing b4, allowing Black to create the monster passers.

My main question is, after 34. e7 Ke7 35.Rxf5+ Kxe7 36.Rh5 Rg8+ 37.Kf2 Rg7 38.Bxa5 Ne6 (all in the game)

What does White do after 39.Bd2! (MNb) Kd6, as Ponomariov would almost certainly have continued?  How does he avoid getting steamrolled in the center and Q-side with the play 40...b5, 41...c5 42....c4?

Does White try to play passively with b3?  I don't see that working out very well either.  Ideas?
  
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MNb
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #28 - 07/06/05 at 21:43:21
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First the entire game, for those who have not downloaded it:

Korchnoi,V (2619) - Ponomariov,R (2695) [E01]
Pivdenny Bank Geller Mem Odessa UKR (8), 03.07.2005

1.c4 Pf6 2.d4 e6 3.g3 d5 4.Lg2 Lb4+ 5.Pd2 0-0 6.Dc2 Pc6 7.Pgf3 dxc4 8.Dxc4 Dd5 9.0-0 Lxd2 10.Dxd5 exd5 11.Lxd2 Te8 12.Tfe1 Lg4 13.Le3 Pe4 14.Tac1 Te7 15.Pe5 Ld7 16.Pxd7 Txd7 17.f3 Pd6 18.Lf2 a5 19.Tc5 Pe7 20.Lh3 f5 21.e4 c6 22.Tc2 g6 23.e5 Pb5 24.g4 Tf8 25.a4 Pc7 26.e6 Tdd8 27.Lh4 Tde8 28.Te5 fxg4 29.Lxg4 Tf4 30.Td2 Pf5 31.Lg5 Txd4 32.Lxf5 Txd2 33.Lxd2 gxf5 34.e7 Kf7 35.Txf5+ Kxe7 36.Th5 Tg8+ 37.Kf2 Tg7 38.Lxa5 Pe6 39.Lb4+ c5 40.Ld2 Kd6 41.Tf5 d4 42.h4 b5 43.axb5 Tb7 44.b4 c4 45.Lf4+ Pxf4 46.Txf4 Ke5 47.Tg4 h6 48.Tg8 Txb5 49.Te8+ Kf5 50.Td8 d3 51.Td4 Txb4 52.Ke3 Ke5 53.h5 Ta4 54.f4+ Kf5 55.Td5+ Kg4 56.Tc5 Tb4 57.Tc6 Kxh5 58.f5 Kg5 59.f6 Kg6 60.f7+ Kxf7 61.Txh6 Tb2 62.Th1 Tc2 63.Tb1 d2 64.Ke2 c3 65.Kd1 Ta2 66.Ke2 d1D+ 0-1

Smyslov_Fan gives the position after White's 34th move.
My proposal is to deviate at move 39. I do not understand, why Kortsnoj provoked the advance of Black's centre pawns, the main trump. Fatigue? Miscalculation?
39.Bd2 d4 40.b4 looks like an improved version of the game.
Another option is 39.Ke3 in order to centralize the king first, eg Kd6 40.Bc3 Rf7 41.b4.
White should not exchange his bishop for the Black knight, as there are pawns on all three fronts. Exchanging rooks though looks desirable, but I do not see how. White can think of a well-timed b4-b5 and perhaps, perhaps, advancing his f-pawn. IMO White keeps good prospects for a draw.
The rook endgame at move 46, 47 is terrible for White.
  

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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #27 - 07/06/05 at 20:45:59
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Wow, that was easy! Shocked

I just went to the Geller Memorial Tournament games that just finished, and came up with some very interesting examples.  In rounds four and five respectively, Viktor Korchnoi lost, then won a Q+B+Ps ending with same colored Bishops and minus one pawn.  Instead of those two games, I decided on a third Korchnoi game, his last round loss to Ruslan Ponomariov.  I took a *very* quick look at the game in Fritz, and decided that it's sufficiently complex and interesting enough for us to analyse and still be instructional.

(If someone could provide a diagram, I'd appreciate it.)

Korchnoi-Ponomariov, 2005
White:  Kg1 Re5 Bd2
            Ps:  a4 b2 e7 f3 h2
Black:  Kg8 Re8 Nc7
            Ps:  a5 b7 c6 d5 f5 h7

White to move.

Intro info:  White lost this game after temporarily losing  a pawn, and then trading into a pure rook ending to regain the pawn.  However, Black had connected passers on the c+d files, which ended up deciding the game.  Let's see if we can't find any improvements for GM Korchnoi!
  
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #26 - 07/06/05 at 20:21:35
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Ok, here's an idea... 

(My computer won't let me access Blitzen right now, so I can't play on ICC Angry)

Let's pick a complex endgame that hasn't been analysed to death and break it down for each other.  We try to choose one new one each week or so, and we give diagrams.  That is, once I learn how to do that! Embarrassed   I'll go through TWIC today and try to pick one that seems interesting to me.  What do you all think?
  
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Re: Endgame-play. (yes, no opening-theory here..)
Reply #25 - 07/06/05 at 12:50:36
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I for one find endgames pretty boring & dry stuff.

But though I hate to say it..... I hv to agree with Capa. "Study the endgame 1st" The endings are an essential part of the game these days cos defensive techniques and middlegame play are so good there are no longer anymore rapid kills in the middlegame as seen in the days of Morphy et al. (maybe even Tal)

I'm about 1700 rating. When I was competitive like 20 yrs ago I payed a lot of attention to openings only. My regret was that i did not study middlegame and endings. So i lost quite a nomber of games. Very often also i would lose even though i had a better position cos i didnt know how to handle the ending.

So if you are ambitious and are shooting for the GM & Im titles, there is really no excuse to avoid studying it. or if you are like me... just intending to play a good game and beat friends , internet players or even the computer, it is still essential if you want to win. Many an internet game i won even though i blundered badly in the opening or middlegame cos my opponent couldnt handle the ending properly (not that i was any good, its just that i knew a minute something & he knew 0). But all i know abt the ending is still just scratching the suface or less. I still dont quite get Kotov's statement in 'Think like a grandmaster' when he speaks of the ending as thinking in terms of schemes (or something to that effect)

perhaps its a good idea to have a forum on endings (or even middlegames) if possible. I personally feel that endings and middlegame are actually more impt than the opening, cos proper play there would ensure a win. The opening & all its latest lines is just a means to get to the middlegame in a so called favourable position. But how one handles that so called advantage to convert it to a win is quite another story.  In this sense I pretty much agree with Klick.& Akavall
  

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