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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match (Read 12610 times)
MNb
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Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #128 - 08/27/05 at 22:19:59
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Come on, ArKheiN, Markovich is only teasing you. Put his words the other way round: if he fails to win, it is not a recommendation to his ...Nh5 defense either, as White has an important improvement at move 10!
To wet your appetite I have two interesting games, albeit with the pawn on h3.

Sirve,O - Visti,H [D00]
FINchT1 (1), 1999
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Pc3 Pf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Pxf3 Lg4 6.h3 Lh5 7.g4 Lg6 8.Pe5 e6 9.Df3 c6 10.g5 Ph5 11.Ld3 Dxd4 12.Pxg6 hxg6 13.Tf1 Dd7 14.Le3 Lb4 15.0–0–0 De7 16.Lxg6 fxg6 17.De4 Pd7 18.Dxg6+ Kd8 19.Tf7 De8 20.Tfxd7+ Dxd7 21.Dxe6 Dxd1+ 22.Pxd1 Pg3 23.Df7 Ph5 24.c3 Le7 25.Pf2 b6 26.Pg4 Tc8 27.Pe5 Tc7 28.Dg6 1–0

Bocanegra Moreno,R (2346) - Michalek,M (2416) [D00]
EM/MN/041 ICCF Email, 25.10.2001
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Pc3 Pf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Pxf3 Lg4 6.h3 Lh5 7.g4 Lg6 8.Pe5 e6 9.Df3 c6 10.g5 Ph5 11.Ld3 Dxd4 12.Pxg6 hxg6 13.Tf1 De5+ 14.Pe2 Dc7 15.Le3 Lb4+ 16.c3 Ld6 17.Lxg6 fxg6 18.0–0–0 Pd7 19.Df7+ Kd8 20.Pd4 Kc8 21.Pxe6 Db8 22.Lc5 Pe5 23.Lxd6 Pxf7 24.Txf7 Dxd6 25.Txd6 a5 26.Tdd7 Ta7 27.Pd4 1–0
  

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ArKheiN
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Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #127 - 08/27/05 at 22:04:23
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Quote:
Good grief, dear chessfreind, you're White, and you're touting your drawing chances.  This hardly recommends your system.


You are being provocative, I told you before, that if I had to play that game again, I would play in a more "BDG style" with something like Nxg6 hxg6 Bd3 because I am not totally happy with the middle-game resulting after Be3. If I play a gambit considered like dubious for lot of guys here, and didn't play moves like Bg2 instead of Qf3 that somes consider like better, and continue with an experimental variation with Be3 assessed as =/+ after Nh5 by yourself, and reach an ending with still a pawn down against a more experienced player, is it a shame to draw here?
If the White player on the BDG have not won in the middle game, or have not found a forced winning ending, their last card on the table is the draw if I am still a pawn down, right? And even with the "standard" opening with White, it's not always possible to end with an advantage! Personnally I really like to play the Black piece because I don't believe in a real White advantage, even with the standard openings, if Black is accurate, or a +/= at best, which is really not a forced win, depending of the player's skill on the Black side.
  
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Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #126 - 08/27/05 at 21:52:10
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Dear X, why don't you take up the challenge? Defend 4...Bf5/11...Be7 against ArKhein and 4...c6/11...Be7 against SevenViolets! It will be most interesting.

Dear ArKheiN,
how do you intend to castle after 10.Nxg6 hxg6 11.Bd3 Qxd4 12.Rf1 Qh4+ 13.Kd1 f5 ? I assume, that even in Belgium castling is prohibited with a king on d1  Grin.
With the pawn on h3 Black has 11.Bd3 Qxd4 12.Nxg6 hxg6 13.Rf1 Qe5+ as I stated in a previous post. This way Black benefits from the hole on g3.
Nice refutation of 16...e5.  8)

29...Rd8 (indeed X's move) 30.Qe2 (30.Rf1 and what about f5 ?) b5 (Qc5? 31.Qa6+ Kb8 32.Qf1 +-) 31.Qf2 Rd7 and here I was thinking of 32.Rd3 to set the rook at work, before eventually manoeuvring the knight to c5.

I am curious to see, which move ArKheiN will chose: 30.Qd3 (I think this is inferior), 30.Qe2 or 30.Rf1.
  

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Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #125 - 08/27/05 at 21:51:54
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1.d4 d5  2. e4 dxe4  3. Nc3 Nf6  4. f3 exf3  5. Nxf3 Bf5  6. Ne5 e6 7.g4 Bg6 8.Qf3 c6  9. g5 Nh5 10.Be3 Nd7 11.Nxg6 hxg6 12.Bd3 Bd6 13.Ne4 Bc7  14. O-O-O Qe7 15.Rhf1 Rf8 16.Bd2 0-0-0 17.a3 a5 18.Bc4 Nb6 19.Bb3 Rxd4 20.Bxa5 Rxd1+ 21.Rxd1 Nd5 22.Bxc7 Qxc7 23.Kb1 Qf4 24.Bxd5 exd5 25.Qh3+ Kc7 26.Nc5 Qd6 27.Qe3 b6  28.Na6+ Kb7 29.Nb4 Rd8

I have had this move ready for some time, most particularly, before anyone here suggested it.  I do not claim that Black wins, only that all the winning chances are his.
  

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Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #124 - 08/27/05 at 21:44:38
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When I say that it will be very difficult to win for Markovich, it's not only for the actual position. He has somes problems to solve actually, but I speak in long-term too, reaching an ending like Rook+King+pawns vs Rook+King+one pawn up can be a possibility, and is normally draw in the most of the time, or even Rook+Knight+King+pawns vs Rook+Knight+King+one pawn up. In every possible type of ending, I think I can manage for a draw. The quite vulnerability of Black's King can be used with a possible perpetual check  in somes possibles lines if the Queens are still on the board, and White have enough activity to put pressures in Black's position, like the e and/or f-file the d-pawn could be also a target after c4. To summarie, I think White's actual activity dictate Black's next moves where the pawn down is not annoying for the moment and if I reach an ending where the pawn down will begin to be an important factor, when I analyse the type of possible endings that can arise now, I am confident about my (big?)drawing chances. But let's the future decide about who was right here.


Good grief, dear chessfreind, you're White, and you're touting your drawing chances.  This hardly recommends your system.
  

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ArKheiN
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Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #123 - 08/27/05 at 20:48:13
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There is lot of interesting responses tonight!!

I will try to respond to some of the questions or remarks.

Quote:
19.Ba2 can lead to interesting complications: 
a) 19...Rxd4 20.Rde1 
a1) 20...Nc4 21.Bc3 Ne5 22.Qf2 looks good for White. 
a2) 20...Bxh2 is interesting: 21.Qf2 Be5 22.c3 Rxd2 23.Nxd2 Nd7 24.Ne4 Bc7 and Black can think of ...f5 again. 
a3) 20...Rdd8 21.Bxa5 Nd5 22.Bd2 Bxh2 23.c4 Qc7 24.cxd5 cxd5+ 25.Nc3 d4 26.Bxe6+ unclear.


I think 19.Ba2 is a little more precise than 19.Bb3 against 19..Rxd4 because Black have not the interesting move a4!?with gain of tempo here, but I think 19..Nd5(!) could be the best move, with the idea to do put a piece on f4 with somes exchanges. And by comparison with 19.Bb3 in this position, I prefer the bishop on b3.

Quote:
Markovich wrote on 26-7: "Play solid moves; eschew the second pawn." That is a strong argument to prefer 10.Nxg6 hxg6 11.Bd3. Black can reach safe equality though with Qxd4 12.Rf1 Qh4+ 13.Kd1 f5 14.gxf6 gxf6 15.Bxg6+ Kd8 returning the pawns.


After 13..f5 I would rather prefer White here, where your king is quite dangerously placed, and mine will castle long. 13..Bc5 could be the best move, as I have already analysed for my own new theory but I will keep it secret for an eventual new match against Markovich in this line.

Quote:
Another intriguing question is, if Black wants the white pawn on h2 or on h3: 
5...Bg4 6.h3 Bh5 7.g4 Bg6 8.Ne5 e6 9.Qf3 c6 (there are many, many deviations) 10.g5 Nh5 11.Be3 (11.Nxg6 hxg6 12.Bd3 Qxd4 13.Rf1 and Qe5+ is a disruptive check) Nd7 12.Nxg6 hxg6 and if both players follow the game, after 24...Qf4 (in the game 23...Qf4) Black is better, as there is no check on h3! I have not found deviations for White from move 10, using the pawn on h3 to his benefit. 
Does this mean, that 5...Bg4 is more precise than 5...Bf5 ?


That's a very interesting question that I had too, where I gave somes of my ideas in this thread the 07/08

There is a copy and past from a part of what I have said that day : But Leisebein played this position a few times like this : 
1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 d5 3.e4 dxe4 4.Nc3 exf3 5.Nf3 Bg4 6.h3 Bh5 7.g4 Bg6 8.Ne5 e6 9.Qf3 c6 10.g5 Nh5 11.Bd3 Qxd4 12.Nxg6 fxg6 13.Be3 Qh4+ 14.Kd2 Ng3 15.Rhg1 Bd6 16.Qg4 Qxg4 17.hxg4 O-O 18.Rg2 Nd7 19.Rag1 where the games finished with a draw. 
 
The good point for Black of this similar way of play with the pawn on h2 is that White couln't put the queen on g4 here but g3 isn't an hole here. Of course it's still an interesting question I think.


So, ok there is an hole in g3 compared with the same position with the pawn on h2, but it has the advantage of the Qg4! move in somes position, like in the possible main line that Leisebein have played a few times. For this reason, White should not fear fxg6 with the pawn on h3, compared with the pawn on h2. But the final conclusion of which of pawn on h2 or h3 is better, is still unclear. All depend of the presice continuation. Effectively, if the pawn was on h3 now instead of h2 in our actual game, it would favour Black here, but I wouldn't have playing in this way too.

Quote:
On the 10.Nxg6 hxg6 11.Bd3 line:   
 
I actually think 10.Bd3 is stronger (despite the ...fxg6 resource) because after 10.Nxg6 hxg6 11.Bd3, I think 11...Be7! is a strong move.


If White would have nothing to fear about fxg6, then, the move order 10.Bd3! Qxd4 11.Ng6 hxg6 would be the most precise because it's more forceful like you have pointed out. But in my move order to avoid fxg6 after 10.Nxg6 hxg6 11.Bd3; ok Qxd4 isn't forced either, but I don't think 11..Be7 is too dangerous, after 12.0-0 I reach the type of position that I wanted for. I prefer to let 11..Be7 possible than hxg6.

Quote:
Question: in the actual game, was there something against 16...e5 ?


Yes, 16..e5?! 17.d5! cxd5 18.Nc3 e4 19.Nxd5 exf3 20.Nxe7, etc, and White are better.
  
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Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #122 - 08/27/05 at 19:55:01
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Actually, I believe I suggested the plan with 29...Rd8!?   Smiley  I made an extra note on the last page.  I hope my ideas are of some use!  I think this is an interesting point in the game.
  

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Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #121 - 08/27/05 at 19:44:05
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29..Nf4?! Shredder 8 main line 30. c4 f6 31. cxd5 cxd5 32. Nxd5 Nxd5 33. Rxd5 Qxd5 34. Qe7+ Kc6 35. Qxf8=

29..Rd8!? This plan, recommended by MNb, seems quite promising 30. Rf1
 
a)30. h4? Ng3-/+ letting knight go out can't be good.
b)30. Re1 c5 31. Qe7+ Rd7 32. Qxd6 Rxd6 33. Re7+ Kc8 34. Nd3 f6 35. Kc1 Rd7-+

30... Rd7 31. Qd3 (31. Qe8?! Qe7-/+; 31.Qe2 seems to be quite similar to 31.Qd3, with possible transpositions) 
31... c5 (31... b5!?) 32. Qa6+ Kb8 33. Nd3 f6!? 
(not 33... Re7? 34. b4 c4 35. Nc5 and white has suddenly even some winning chances with a4 pawn advance)
34. Qb5 Re7 (34... Rc7 35. Qe8+ Kb7 36. Re1 fxg5 37. Re6 Qd7 38. Qxg6 Nf6 39. Qf5 g4 40. Ne5 unclear) 35. a4 Kb7 36. b4 c4 37. Nc5+ Kc7 38. Na6+ Kc8 39. Rd1 Nf4 40. Qxc4+ Kb7 41. b5 Re2 42. Qb4 Qxb4+ 43. Nxb4 Rxh2 44. Nxd5 fxg5 45. c4 and black might have some prospects to win but the position needs to be carefully examined.



  
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Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #120 - 08/27/05 at 19:34:07
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@MNb:
Maybe something like 16...e5 17.Rde1 O-O-O 18.a3 a5 19.Nc3 Nb6 20.dxe5 Bxe5 21.Qe3 was cause for concern.  I think it is very risky to break with ...e5 before Black has castled, while the Bishop is on d2, clearing the way for Rde1 to exert influence on the e-file.
  

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Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #119 - 08/27/05 at 19:15:19
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@MNb:
After 10.Nxg6 hxg6 11.Bd3 Be7 12.O-O O-O, isn't Black just going to be up another pawn with a superior position?  (g5 and d4 are weak.)
  

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Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #118 - 08/27/05 at 19:02:16
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@MNb:
I don't think this is as bad for Black as it looks.  For example, 29...Rd8 30.Qe2 (This is probably the best move.) 30...Rd7 31.Nd3 Re7 32.Nc5+ Kc8.

I think Black is OK.  At first the knight on c5 looks terrible, but Black does not seem to have any clear weaknesses to target.  So my impression is that White has a visually impressive knight on c5, but a position without a future, while Black can still improve.

This really should be checked carefully.  I think you have pinned down the critical continuation to this line of defense.  White may be able cause difficulties with moves like Na6 and Qb6, although ...Rb7 defends for now.  The problem with White's position is that he has to have his eyes constantly on d4 and f4.  If the knight ever gets out of his corner or the pawn reaches d4 favourably, White's game could go downhill quickly.

Addendum:  Another possibility after 29...Rd8 30.Qe2, is 30...Qc5!?.  For instance after 31.Qa6+ Kb8 32.Rd3 Qg1+ 33.Ka2 Rd6 Black seems to defend.  When I first looked at this, I thought it was downright bad, but now I am not so sure.  At least it should be considered.
  

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Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #117 - 08/27/05 at 18:42:19
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10.Nxg6 hxg6 11.Bd3 Be7 12.o-o with compensation. Pawn f7 is weak and Nh5 is out of play.

Question: in the actual game, was there something against 16...e5 ?
  

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Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #116 - 08/27/05 at 18:37:35
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On the 10.Nxg6 hxg6 11.Bd3 line:   

I actually think 10.Bd3 is stronger (despite the ...fxg6 resource) because after 10.Nxg6 hxg6 11.Bd3, I think 11...Be7! is a strong move.  Note that after 10.Bd3, 10...Be7?? doesn't work due to 11.Bxg6, an advantage from holding back on the exchange.  So I agree with Lev that 10.Bd3 Qxd4 11.Nxg6 fxg6 is a critical line for evaluation.
  

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Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #115 - 08/27/05 at 18:24:52
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Another intriguing question is, if Black wants the white pawn on h2 or on h3:
5...Bg4 6.h3 Bh5 7.g4 Bg6 8.Ne5 e6 9.Qf3 c6 (there are many, many deviations) 10.g5 Nh5 11.Be3 (11.Nxg6 hxg6 12.Bd3 Qxd4 13.Rf1 and Qe5+ is a disruptive check) Nd7 12.Nxg6 hxg6 and if both players follow the game, after 24...Qf4 (in the game 23...Qf4) Black is better, as there is no check on h3! I have not found deviations for White from move 10, using the pawn on h3 to his benefit.
Does this mean, that 5...Bg4 is more precise than 5...Bf5 ?

@X: 29...Rd8 30.Qe2 (another route to a6) b5 31.Qf2 and square c5 beckons to White's knight, while White has pressure against f7 too.
  

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Re: ArKheiN - Markovich, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #114 - 08/27/05 at 18:21:02
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I notice several people in defense of White's position are saying that Black must play ...Ra8; however, I don't think that is the way for Black to go.  I think Black should play 29...Rd8 with the idea of ...Rd7, which serves as a countermeasure against c4, and repositions the rook to defend f7 from a more active position.  If White insists on playing Qd3, I think Black should not be afraid of playing ...b5, which I don't think is as weakening as it appears, and in some instances allows Black to gain even more ground.  With the rook on d7, it serves useful defensive and offensive functions.  In some cases it can transfer to the e-file, and in some instances, it can be a useful defensive (or even offensive) piece on the queenside if the black king retreats.  This is a bit of a rough sketch and I have looked at a few lines on my own to check this defensive scheme.  I just think some people are overlooking some important defensive ideas for Black.  Anyway, I am fairly confident of Markovich's handling of the game.  I think he has done an excellent job so far.
  

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