Poll
Poll Question: Why masters do not play the BDG more often?
bars   pie

Masters do not like taking risks    
  2 (6.5%)
Masters do not like gambit play    
  4 (12.9%)
Masters are too conservative    
  5 (16.1%)
BDG is hard to learn    
  0 (0.0%)
Some masters are too chicken    
  2 (6.5%)
Positional chess is to blame    
  2 (6.5%)
Too much dogmatic thinking    
  2 (6.5%)
Other openings are as good    
  7 (22.6%)
Matter of style    
  2 (6.5%)
Depends on your Zodiac sign    
  5 (16.1%)




Total votes: 31
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) BLACKMAR-DIEMER GAMBIT (Read 52593 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: BLACKMAR-DIEMER GAMBIT
Reply #23 - 07/21/05 at 23:01:21
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Inn has this one nailed when he says:

Quote:
if i had my way, threads on the BDG should be banned!   


Actually, it should be banned from this forum and placed in the d4 d5 forum.  There, you can read all the BDG dross you could ever want!
8)

Cheers!
  
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Re: BLACKMAR-DIEMER GAMBIT
Reply #22 - 07/21/05 at 21:52:27
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Why Masters don't play the BDG more often. I would have thought that was a no brainer.  Grin

A) At Master level defensive and counter attacking technique is much tougher, and accordingly there is more respect for a pawn, especially a Center one.

B) The BDG does not offer enough compensation in Time or Space for the pawn nor does it force black to make any concession in position by accepting (No doubt this can be debated for years, but not among masters....They already no better).

C) Yes you may upset the occasional FM IM or even GM with the BDG, but conversely you may lose to much lower rated players as well, such is the price of playing ropey Openings such as the BDG.   

D) If you have to make almost perfect moves to have a playable game, then the Opening sucks. Masters prefer to have more options available than walking a tight rope where one slip could prove fatal..........Particularly with white.

E) Everytime a Master loses to a doubtful Gambit it is news, when the Master wins it is not. Amateurs maybe easily fooled and swayed by such sensational reporting, but Masters will hardly raise an eyebrow.

F) Masters have concluded that it is possible to play aggressive chess without giving away pawns in the Opening willy nilly, for vague attacking chances. Pawns are valuable assets, and Amateurs for some reason always tend to under value them. 

G) When practicing BDGeers break into the Master and Grandmaster ranks and are successful against their peers, then perhaps Master opinion will change, but I would'nt hold your breath.

The BDG will continue to appeal to Amateurs looking for an attacking Opening with repetitive attacking themes that can be used against everything. For amateurs it does not matter whether it is sound or not, so long as they can beat an impress their buddies at the local club thats good enough for them. Masters require a higher standard.

Specialising in dubious Openings because the attacking scheme is one dimensional and easy to execute, and expecting sustainable growth, improvement and positive results from such an approach is plain absurd not to mention lazy.

No doubt you may find one or two eccentric Masters that will indulge in things such as the BDG, but these will always be in the minority. Most of the time such players will win games not because of any inherit value of the Opening but moreso due to their own individual gifts, Mike Basman of Grob fame springs to mind.

For the average player looking for a systematic way to improve, avoid the temptation of a quick fix. Learn how to form plans, implement ideas, force weaknesses and exploit them etc.

On the road to Chess Mastery it is the journey rather than the destination that is truly the most rewarding and enlightening.

Do not short change yourself.

Top Grin       
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: BLACKMAR-DIEMER GAMBIT
Reply #21 - 07/21/05 at 21:45:07
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"Will somebody please move this subject?"
No chance. Yaltmax has been out for a long time now.

I feel sympathy for LDZ. Before he revealed his Polish origin, I assumed he was Russian. You see, he reminds me of the Russian Holy Fool. Everyone who is familiar with Boris Godunov by Mussorgsky understands what a compliment this is.
  

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Re: BLACKMAR-DIEMER GAMBIT
Reply #20 - 07/21/05 at 15:18:36
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HGman--lol. That will never get old. 

Fluffy--he did the same thing to me in the BDG:ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN THE EUWE DEFENSE thread. I gave my oppinion and he attacked me with insults (though I didn't exactly behave like a gentleman afterwards  Grin lol). 

By the way-MNB your post was hilarious and right on the mark. Keep up the good work lol.
  
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Re: BLACKMAR-DIEMER GAMBIT
Reply #19 - 07/21/05 at 12:35:50
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Albatross!
  

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Re: BLACKMAR-DIEMER GAMBIT
Reply #18 - 07/21/05 at 12:26:06
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again, typical. Zilbermints takes personal offense and resorts to name calling. I thought you were seeking opinions? Now you are calling me names because I don't want to get into it with you. typical cult looney. I didn't come here to play in a silly thematic match with a bs opening. I don't recall attacking you personally Lev. You asked for opinions and got them, then you lash out and call me a coward? what an f'ing a hole.
  
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Re: BLACKMAR-DIEMER GAMBIT
Reply #17 - 07/21/05 at 11:53:54
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Quote:
if i had my way, threads on the BDG should be banned!


Well...They certainly are noisy. But actually I like to encourage it. Maybe I will have the pleasure to face it over the board a little more frequently. Wink
  

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Lev D. Zilbermints
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Re: BLACKMAR-DIEMER GAMBIT
Reply #16 - 07/21/05 at 11:31:13
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Quote:
I do not think masters are gods. but masters certainly tend to have better chess understanding and skill than non masters. It shows your lack of objectivity that your little poll does not even have a choice that implies that iyour gambit is unsound. Sure, you can play the BDG. It is probably a good way to learn to play with initiative, but so are many other more legitimate openings. 

Patrik Schoupal? Charles Diebert? I'm sure they are fine players, but I've never heard of them. Players like Moro and Fedorov occasionally wheel out the King's Gambit, yes, but they can't for long.

Lev's repsonse is typical in these cult openings. How dare I say it's not sound! It must be a personal attack. This thread looked to me like it was asking for opinions on why the BDG is not played at master level. 

"This is a poll designed to find out why master-strength players do not play the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit more often in over-the-board chess." 

I am giving you you a knowledgable opinion and you freak out! Don't ask questions you don't want to hear the answer too. I'm not surprised- Monson goes berserk if you question his beloved baby the Belgrade Gambit.

"By your own definition, anything that is unorthodox would be a waste of masters' time." Um, where did I say that? I love these forums. You give an opinion and people put words in your mouth. Openings like the Chigorin QGD and Knight's Tango are unorthodox but have some respectablity at least.

""Higher chess logic", indeed!! Does this apply to Spassky, who loves to play the King's Gambit?" I thought you were asking for opinions on the BDG. Did I miss something?

No, I do not want to play a match on ICC. Because I don't care. It's not about being brave. The BDG may be playable, but when you reach higher levels, you want more than "playable" with white.


First, I am no god, just a human being like everyone other  on this earth.

Second, "fluffy" 's response is entirely predictable: talk the talk, but afraid to walk the walk. Else why would he decline the opportunity to prove his arguments over the chess board? Where is his analyses that shows the BDG is not, as he says, a sound opening? I do not see any.
All I see is a coward scampering away from a challenge.

If you check the BDG:ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT IN THE EUWE DEFENSE thread, you will see a game, R. Buss-V. Kramnik, simultaneous, Zurich 1999. That game went 4...e3?!, the cowardly Langeheineicke Defense.  Result: draw after 51 moves.

As for not getting the BDG ever time you play 1 d4, it is perfectly natural! The same could be said of not getting
the Dutch Defense or the Benoni, 1 d4 f5, or 1 d4 c5, 
ever time 1 d4 is played.  You cannot expect your opponent to allow you a BDG every time as White.
Heck, after 1 d4, some will even play 1...g6 .

Any other questions?

Next time I will post some White wins with the BDG over masters.
  
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Re: BLACKMAR-DIEMER GAMBIT
Reply #15 - 07/21/05 at 10:36:11
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I do not think masters are gods. but masters certainly tend to have better chess understanding and skill than non masters. It shows your lack of objectivity that your little poll does not even have a choice that implies that iyour gambit is unsound. Sure, you can play the BDG. It is probably a good way to learn to play with initiative, but so are many other more legitimate openings. 

Patrik Schoupal? Charles Diebert? I'm sure they are fine players, but I've never heard of them. Players like Moro and Fedorov occasionally wheel out the King's Gambit, yes, but they can't for long.

Lev's repsonse is typical in these cult openings. How dare I say it's not sound! It must be a personal attack. This thread looked to me like it was asking for opinions on why the BDG is not played at master level. 

"This is a poll designed to find out why master-strength players do not play the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit more often in over-the-board chess." 

I am giving you you a knowledgable opinion and you freak out! Don't ask questions you don't want to hear the answer too. I'm not surprised- Monson goes berserk if you question his beloved baby the Belgrade Gambit.

"By your own definition, anything that is unorthodox would be a waste of masters' time." Um, where did I say that? I love these forums. You give an opinion and people put words in your mouth. Openings like the Chigorin QGD and Knight's Tango are unorthodox but have some respectablity at least.

""Higher chess logic", indeed!! Does this apply to Spassky, who loves to play the King's Gambit?" I thought you were asking for opinions on the BDG. Did I miss something?

No, I do not want to play a match on ICC. Because I don't care. It's not about being brave. The BDG may be playable, but when you reach higher levels, you want more than "playable" with white.
  
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Re: BLACKMAR-DIEMER GAMBIT
Reply #14 - 07/21/05 at 08:02:25
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if i had my way, threads on the BDG should be banned!  Angry


  
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Re: BLACKMAR-DIEMER GAMBIT
Reply #13 - 07/21/05 at 06:29:07
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Will somebody please move this subject? 

The d-pawn specials forum is already swamped by BDG-maniacs and can probably take one more thread without much extra suffering.
  

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Re: BLACKMAR-DIEMER GAMBIT
Reply #12 - 07/21/05 at 05:51:40
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Aha, I already wondered who was the other one, who voted for the Zodiac sign.
Diebert himself, despite of all his successes, has declared a few times that the BDG is highly dubious. The reason he plays it, is that he thinks it is fun and feels comfortable in the resulting positions. That is reason enough of course, but does not prove anything about the theoretical correctness of the BDG.
  

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Re: BLACKMAR-DIEMER GAMBIT
Reply #11 - 07/21/05 at 02:25:42
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Quote:


You put masters on such a high pedestal, thinking they must gods. 



If he thinks they are gods, he must assume he is god himself
Grin

If it is the same fluffy I happen to know thro' other forum , he is an IM himself and it is his considered opinion.

Unlike other gambits, BDG has a cult following and it has limited (questionable?) respectability.

If you want top play BDG at master level, the master has to be a master at main line french as well. Now why do masters never play Winkleman-Diemer Gambit against French ? Smiley

BDG has definitely a cult reputation as fluffy says. And you are not even sure you will get BDG when you seek one!

That's why I voted for "It depends on its Zodiac Sign"
  

CastleRock
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Lev D. Zilbermints
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Re: BLACKMAR-DIEMER GAMBIT
Reply #10 - 07/20/05 at 23:04:27
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Quote:
masters do not play the BDG because it's a BS cult opening, like many gambits, no matter how much "analysis" you have. Masters do not want to debate your analysis because it is a waste of their time. Masters have a higher sense of chess logic, and dropping a pawn does not fit into their scheme of thinking. There are a few exceptions, like the Benko Gambit, but the BDG is certainly not one of them.


You put masters on such a high pedestal, thinking they must gods. Explain to me then, why Patrik Schoupal is playing GM Erik Prie here? Explain why U.S. National Masters Charles Diebert scored a lot of wins with the BDG against masters in the 1980s and 1990s? 

"Higher chess logic", indeed!! Does this apply to Spassky, who loves to play the King's Gambit?

"Waste of time" ? By your own definition, anything that is unorthodox would be a waste of masters' time.

  Okay... How about you play me on the Internet Chess Club, Game/ 1 hour?  Let us see how brave you are under all these fancy words! Or are you just a fluffy, too scared to take up the challenge?

  The game result will be posted here.

ONE CONDITION: NO COMPUTER ANALYSES WHILE WE PLAY!!

  
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Re: BLACKMAR-DIEMER GAMBIT
Reply #9 - 07/20/05 at 19:58:32
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masters do not play the BDG because it's a BS cult opening, like many gambits, no matter how much "analysis" you have. Masters do not want to debate your analysis because it is a waste of their time. Masters have a higher sense of chess logic, and dropping a pawn does not fit into their scheme of thinking. There are a few exceptions, like the Benko Gambit, but the BDG is certainly not one of them.
  
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