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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.b4 !? (Read 17831 times)
Bruce
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.b4 !?
Reply #26 - 08/24/05 at 04:45:41
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I must admit that after 1.e4 d5 2.g4!  black is in great trouble....  Roll Eyes

Anyway... after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.b4  I simply dont take the pawn. im sure that objectively 4...Qxb4 is strongest, but when im playing 5 0 on playchess i prefer the "cowardly" Qb6. Now black's idea is to strive for the normal setup, and maybe later taking on b4 with no problems. 

During the 3 years ive been playing 1...d5 ive seen some wild stuff thrown at me OTB, but nobody has yet to play 4.b4 against me in a OTB game.
  
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Sacapawn
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.b4 !?
Reply #25 - 08/24/05 at 01:08:14
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TopNotch: Exactly, that was my meaning, but instead of writing that explicitly I wanted to give a line where Black has easy equality and probably more. The same goes for Bonsai's lines. 

Considering that White gets a small advantage in the main line (2.exd5) it is not very interesting to continue the analysis to see whether or not White can equalize with 2.g4.

  
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TopNotch
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.b4 !?
Reply #24 - 08/23/05 at 18:14:35
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1.e4 d5 2.g4 is better than its looks .


True, but considering how god awful it looks, that's not saying much.

Topper Grin
  

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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.b4 !?
Reply #23 - 08/23/05 at 15:42:44
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MNB wrote, 

Quote:
As soon as the defender declines a gambit and proves a positional advantage, he is a coward.


Long live the Nineteenth Century, when all chess players were officers or gentlemen and riff-raff were kept far away from the great salons of chess!  Of course it's cowardly to refuse a gambit unless you offer one in return.  But then, the 19th Centurey also had that bastion of good sportsmanship, von Bardeleben.
  
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MNb
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.b4 !?
Reply #22 - 08/23/05 at 15:29:42
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"Of course 2...Nc6 is a coward's way of  declining a gambit"
I begin to see a pattern here. As soon as the defender declines a gambit and proves a positional advantage, he is a coward. Am I right? ???
  

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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.b4 !?
Reply #21 - 08/23/05 at 09:06:02
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Quote:

You mean black is better, and that's why you don't like it?

You can't play 3.Nxe4 after 1.e4 d5 2.g4 e5, as in this case I haven't even taken on e4 and you haven't played Nc3, yet. So, yes, I was "cowardly" trying to ignore the gambit and go on with development while white fools around with g2-g4. Similarly I would probably just ignore 3.d3.


Oops! Sorry about that. I was making moves without sight of board, which accounts for my typo. Once I get to a chessboard I will post my answer.
  
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Sacapawn_guest
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.b4 !?
Reply #20 - 08/23/05 at 03:27:15
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1.e4 d5 2.g4 is better than its looks but it would be very surprising if it gives any problems for Black.

2.-,h5!? hasn't been mentioned yet. 3.g5 (3.gxh5? dxe4 4.Nc3 Nf6 and Black is already better) 3.-,dxe4 (3.-,e5!?) 4.Nc3 and now Black can either try to keep the extra pawn with 4.-,f5 or choose quick development with e.g. 4.-,Bg4 5.Be2 Qd7 6.Nxe4 e5 followed by Nc6 and 0-0-0.
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.b4 !?
Reply #19 - 08/23/05 at 01:19:01
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Your 2...Nc6 is interesting, but in practice it is not seen frequently. I actually see 2...Nf6, 2...Bf5, 2...e5   more often than 2...Nc6. Of course 2...Nc6 is a coward's way of  declining a gambit, but that is another story altogether.

You mean black is better, and that's why you don't like it?

Quote:

Against 2...e5 I can proceed with A) 3 Nxe4  or B) 3 d3!? , the Zilbermints - Hartlaub Gambit. Thus, in the second line, 3 d3!? ed3 4 Bd3 gives White an edge in development. The idea is to play 000 and attack in the center and the Kingside.

You can't play 3.Nxe4 after 1.e4 d5 2.g4 e5, as in this case I haven't even taken on e4 and you haven't played Nc3, yet. So, yes, I was "cowardly" trying to ignore the gambit and go on with development while white fools around with g2-g4. Similarly I would probably just ignore 3.d3.
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.b4 !?
Reply #18 - 08/22/05 at 21:57:06
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Oh, btw....

Speaking of mieses.....

I have a cousin, Neil, who was born at St. Andrews, in Edinburgh.  He now lives in Oban... Anyway, he came over to Colorado a couple of years ago, so I took him to the Rocky Mountain National Park. (Wow, what a park!)

We were standing on a mountain looking down at a river (in any other state it would be a creek or a stream, but in Colorado, we take what we can get) and suddenly this great big brown thing burst out of the bushes and crossed the stream, disappearing on the other side.   

My cousin asked me, shocked, "Whot was that?"

"A moose."

"A moose?"

"Yeah, a moose."

And his eyes grew even bigger.  I asked what was the matter.
 
He replied, "If that was a moose, I'd hate to see one of your bloody rats!"
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.b4 !?
Reply #17 - 08/22/05 at 21:51:24
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Bon voyage, Gambit!

Here's hoping you bring back some interesting treats for us! Cheesy

Btw, is it Mieses as in I hate them to pieces, or Neices?  I get sooo confused!
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.b4 !?
Reply #16 - 08/22/05 at 21:01:19
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Well, I'll take the move seriously for a moment and will answer Lev's rather optimistic analysis (it's basically based on black making various mediocre moves in a row and in the end white quite possibly does indeed have a decent position).

One line that seems obvious to me in the spirit of the Scandinavian would be
1.e4 d5 2.g4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nc6
Basically black gets a position similar to some Scandinavian or Van Geet lines, with the difference that it's black who has a lead in development and additionally white has weakened his own position with g2-g4.
A. 4.Bg2 Nf6 After white has comitted to Bf1-g2 this is really strong. 5.g5!? Bg4 and black has a huge advantage, of course 5.h3 is better, but then black is obviously better after e.g. 5...e5, too.

B.4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.Bg2 Nxg4 and white has absolutely no compensation as far as I can see, e.g. 6.Ne2 e5 7.d3 f5 8.Bg5 Be7. Alternatively 5.Nxf6 exf6 gives black a superior and extremely solid position 6.Bg2 Bc5 7.c3!? 7.Bxc6 does weaken the light squares on the white kingside too severly. 7...Qe7+ 8.Kf1 0-0 white is in trouble.

And I'm quite confident that black should have a really pleasant position after 2...Nc6 with similar ideas (but less forcing) or even just 2...e5.


Your 2...Nc6 is interesting, but in practice it is not seen frequently. I actually see 2...Nf6, 2...Bf5, 2...e5   more often than 2...Nc6. Of course 2...Nc6 is a coward's way of  declining a gambit, but that is another story altogether.

Against 2...e5 I can proceed with A) 3 Nxe4  or B) 3 d3!? , the Zilbermints - Hartlaub Gambit. Thus, in the second line, 3 d3!? ed3 4 Bd3 gives White an edge in development. The idea is to play 000 and attack in the center and the Kingside.

I would love to post some games, but unfortunately I left my notes and game scores at home. As I type this, I am visiting my sister and twin nieces in central New Jersey.  Once I return home, I will access my files and post the games.
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.b4 !?
Reply #15 - 08/22/05 at 18:10:13
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Well, I'll take the move seriously for a moment and will answer Lev's rather optimistic analysis (it's basically based on black making various mediocre moves in a row and in the end white quite possibly does indeed have a decent position).

One line that seems obvious to me in the spirit of the Scandinavian would be
1.e4 d5 2.g4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nc6
Basically black gets a position similar to some Scandinavian or Van Geet lines, with the difference that it's black who has a lead in development and additionally white has weakened his own position with g2-g4.
A. 4.Bg2 Nf6 After white has comitted to Bf1-g2 this is really strong. 5.g5!? Bg4 and black has a huge advantage, of course 5.h3 is better, but then black is obviously better after e.g. 5...e5, too.

B.4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.Bg2 Nxg4 and white has absolutely no compensation as far as I can see, e.g. 6.Ne2 e5 7.d3 f5 8.Bg5 Be7. Alternatively 5.Nxf6 exf6 gives black a superior and extremely solid position 6.Bg2 Bc5 7.c3!? 7.Bxc6 does weaken the light squares on the white kingside too severly. 7...Qe7+ 8.Kf1 0-0 white is in trouble.

And I'm quite confident that black should have a really pleasant position after 2...Nc6 with similar ideas (but less forcing) or even just 2...e5.
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.b4 !?
Reply #14 - 08/22/05 at 12:30:00
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Anyone who suggests 2.g4 can't be taken seriously. Giving the move an exclamation mark is beyond ridiculous.

It reminds me of a guy in who came to the local chess club and said that he had done some serious study of the game and had concluded that white had a decisive advantage after 1.a4.

To even discuss anything further is pointless.
  

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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.b4 !?
Reply #13 - 08/22/05 at 09:07:03
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Quote:
In Roastednuts' defense.   

What's there to analyse?

You threw out a move, 2.g4 and gave yourself an exclam without explaining the purpose of dropping a central pawn.  You say  "3.Nc3! and now the fun starts."  Who cares if Black is out of "book"?  Unless you're playing a guppy who lives and dies by book openings, you'd better have a better reason to play a move than "it gets your opponent out of book".  Ok, it may have shock value, but can you at least explain the idea behind it?


Oh yeah, Fritz gives at least ten (10!) different second moves that give Black a tangible advantage.  You're gonna have to come up with a lot of answers to convince me.

Btw, a G/30 or G/60 game may satisfy some people about the soundness of an opening, but not me.  Let's see some concrete analysis here!


Guess what? When you are playing in an over-the-board tournament, you can't use Fritz.  As for analyses...

1 e4 d5 2 g4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 g5  and now:

a) 4...Nd5  5 Nxe4 Bf5 6 d3 (or 6 Ng3) followed  by an eventual Bg2, playing in hypermodern style.

b) 4...Bg4  5 Be2  Bxe2 6 Qxe2 Nd5  7 Qb5+  c6  8 Qxb7  with White advantage

I have had both lines occur many times in over-the-board and blitz play.
  
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Re: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.b4 !?
Reply #12 - 08/22/05 at 02:29:22
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In Roastednuts' defense.  

What's there to analyse?

You threw out a move, 2.g4 and gave yourself an exclam without explaining the purpose of dropping a central pawn.  You say  "3.Nc3! and now the fun starts."  Who cares if Black is out of "book"?  Unless you're playing a guppy who lives and dies by book openings, you'd better have a better reason to play a move than "it gets your opponent out of book".  Ok, it may have shock value, but can you at least explain the idea behind it?


Oh yeah, Fritz gives at least ten (10!) different second moves that give Black a tangible advantage.  You're gonna have to come up with a lot of answers to convince me.

Btw, a G/30 or G/60 game may satisfy some people about the soundness of an opening, but not me.  Let's see some concrete analysis here!
  
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