Hello,

I have had a recent game which went 

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Nf3 Qxd5 4.Nc3 Qa5 5.d4 Bg4 6.h3 Bh5 7.Bc4 e6 8.Bd2 c6 
9.Nd5 Qd8 10.Nxf6+ Qxf6 11.g4 Bg6  Not exactly the same line as being discussed but very similar. Based on what has been discussed, should have played 12 Qe2. Then in my situation, white's advantage looks so large that 10... Qxf6 could be a blunder, and 10... gxf6 should have been played instead. During the game, I had vague memories of this being discussed in Emm's book on the opening, but couldn't remember properly and played 11 g5 instead when had only a very small advantage if anything.

Bye John S

Keano wrote on 05/09/07 at 07:58:17:


This Nd7 Qe5-c7 idea was discussed and explored sometime back in another thread by Bonsai I think, and it was determined at that time that there was no easy equality to be found for Black. I concur with Bonsai, and would add that Black is playing for two results there, those being a draw or a loss.     

Topster

Yes, my understanding is that the line with ...0-0 is theoretically very good for White, I was hoping some improvement could be found for Black to generate queenside counterplay quickly against the White king, but of course given the fact that most GM´s have rejected this line means there is probably nothing to be found. To be honest I have not had a serious look yet, but I suspect you are correct and there is no rehabilitation there.

To be honest though, I understand this Shirov line is a safe option for WHite but I dont understand the fuss - in the ...Nd7 line the maneuvre ...Qe5! -c7 seems to obtain equality as GM Prie pointed out, and as seems to be confirmed by tournament practice in the games played in this line in 2006-2007. Besides this if Black really is desperate to win there is the ....gxf6!? option with transposition to a Bronstein Caro-Kann where White has not played the most dangerous g3 lines.

In short, this line will not kill the Scandinavian

The Shirov-Salov game was not straightforward at all as far as I remember, when time permits I will try and rehabilitate the line, since Black is in trouble or else playing for a draw in other lines it looks like it has to be this or the ...gxf6 stuff which is still an option of course.

Btw the Shirov-Bauer game looks fine for Bauer for most of it - it was only at the end he went wrong, at one point I felt he was better. Does Bauer claim an advantage for Black anywhere in his analysis or just equality? If a draw is acceptable that line certainly looks the way to go, as I said elsewhere there is no refutation of the Scandinavian here!

Keano wrote on 05/07/07 at 11:38:01:

  No!  0-0-0  
To resume 10.Qe2 Bg4 11.0-0-0 Nd7 12.d5 Ba3 13.c3 Bf3 14.gf3 cd5 15.Bd5 0-0?! lead to a difficult position  16.Be4 Bc5! Shirov (16...Be7? The famous Shirov-Salov)17.Rhg1!? a natural move (Shirov give only 17.Be3 +=) h6 18.Rg3 (one can play Rg2 but via g3 the rook can go h3)Bd6 we follow the corr. game Oloffson,Dan 2531 - Dunwoody  2284 .   january 2006 19.Rg2 Bf4 20.Rdg1 Bd2+ 21.Qd2 Rad8 22.Rxg7 and white have won the final queen againt rooks

15...0-0-0 (instead of o-o of course)less popular because of Finkel's (chessbase) analyse 16.Bb7+ (white have tried 16.Qc4+ and Be4 without sucess in corr. game) Kb7 17.Qe4 Kc8 (Finkel give Kb8....+/-)18.ba3 Nb6 19.Kc2 Rd5 20.Be3 Rhd8 21.Rd5 ed5 22.Qd4 (one can try 22.Qg4 Kb7 not clear too)and black is no worse

Quote:


Maybe black is not too bad here but black should also consider 14.000 Ba3!? 15.c3 000!

Ametanoitos wrote on 11/13/06 at 11:28:24:


I think 11.d5?! is a bit premature and unconvincing after 11...cxd5 12.Bxd5 0-0! intending to meet Bxb7? with Qxb2 and a double attack. After 12...0-0 I see nothing special for White.

Regarding Bonsai's interesting post, I mostly agree with his findings but I have some ideas of my own to add which makes life more difficult for Black.

Suffice it to say I no longer think that 10...Bd6 is enough to fully rehabilitate this line for Black. However showing this will prove to be a rather extensive and time consuming task so I will post my findings at a more convenient moment.

Topper

TopNotch wrote on 11/12/06 at 03:07:56:

Those are quite interesting and certainly both variations look quite interesting. I've analyzed about for a bit and didn't find any obvious refutation:
1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qa5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 c6 6. Bc4 Bf5 7. Bd2 e6 8. Nd5 Qd8 9. Nxf6+ Qxf6 10. Qe2 Bd6 11. O-O-O
http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=rnxxkxxr%2Fppxxxppp%2Fxxp...

Line A
I guess the obvious continuation for white after 11... Bg4 has to be 12. d5 Bxf3 13. gxf3 cxd5 14. Bxd5, when now black seems to have two main options
http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=rnxxkxxr%2Fppxxxppp%2Fxxx...
Line A1
14...Nd7 15. Bc3 (15. Bxb7 Rb8 16. Qb5 O-O 17. Qxd7 Rxb7 18. Qxb7 Rb8 19. Qxb8+ Bxb8 20. Bc3 Qf4+ 21. Kb1 Bc7 22. Rd3 in comparison doesn't look that bad for black, I would prefer the two rooks though) 15... Be5 16. Bxe5 Qxe5 17. Qxe5 Nxe5 18. Bxb7 Rb8 19. Be4 which seeems just bad for black.

Line A2
The best continuation for black seems to be 14... Nc6 15. Kb1 15.Be4 Bf4 16. Bxf4 Qxf4+ 17. Qe3 Qxe3+ 18. fxe3 Ke7 is that actually okay for black? I am sort of inclinced to believe it. 15... O-O 15... Be5 looks not so good to me: 16. Be4
O-O (16... Bxb2 17. Qb5!) (16... O-O-O 17. Bxc6 bxc6 18. Qa6+ Kb8 19. Be3 Qe7 20. Qxc6 Qc7 21. Qa4 Bf6 is presumably just good for white) 17. Rhg1 Bxb2 18. Bg5 Qe5 (18... Qc3 19. Rd3 Qc5 20. Kxb2 Qb5+ 21. Ka1 Qe5+ 22. c3 f5 23. Bc1 fxe4 24. fxe4 Qxh2 25. Qg4 Rf7 26. Rh3 Qe5 27. Rh5 Qf6 28. Qh3 g6 29. f4 Rg7 30. Rh6 Rc8 31. Bb2 Rcc7 32. c4 Nd4 33. f5 exf5 34. exf5 Qb6 35. Rf1 Rxc4 36. fxg6 Rxg6 37.Rxg6+ hxg6 38. Rh1 is lost) 19. f4 Qc5 20. Kxb2 Qb4+ 21. Ka1 Qc3+ 22. Kb1 Qb4+ 23.
Kc1 Qa3+ 24. Kd2 Qa5+ 25. c3 f6 26. Bh6 Rf7 27. Qc4 Rd8+ 28. Kc2 Rxd1 29. Kxd1
Qh5+ 30. Kc2 Qxh6 31. Qxe6 Ne7 32. Rd1 g6 33. Bd3 and white is winning) 
Of course the black position after 15...0-0 looks dangerous, after all, the open g-file must be worth something, but e.g. after 16. Be4 Rfd8 17. Rhg1 h6 I am not so sure how to use it, since tricks like  18. Bxc6 bxc6 19. Bc3 e5 20. Qe3 don't seem all that impressive (20.f4 Qxf4!). But maybe there is something here for white if one just gets the right idea?!

Line B
To me 11...O-O looks in a way more solid (after all, after 11...Ld6 the whole 12.d5 break looks very dangerous to me, even if I cannot prove that it's really better for white).

Line B1
Black is able to set up a pretty quick pawn-storm, in part because of the bishop on c4: 12. h3 b5 13.Bb3 a5 14. a4 Nd7 15. g4 Bg6 16. h4 bxa4 17. Bxa4 Nb6 18. Bg5 Bf4+ 19. Kb1 Bxg5 20. hxg5 Qf4 21. Bxc6 Rfc8 22. Ne5 Rxc6 23. Nxc6 Be4 24. d5 Bxh1 25. Rxh1 Nxd5 26. Qd3 h6 27. gxh6 gxh6 28. Qd4 Qxd4 29. Nxd4

Line B2
Another idea I had was whether one could try to somehow play g2-g4 faster. Of course 12.g4 is just wrong, but maybe 12.Ne5 Bxe5 13.e5 Qg6 14.g4 E.g. 14...Bxc2 15.h4 Bxd1 16.Rxd1 h6 17.Bd3 f5 18.exf6 19.Qe4 g6 looks quite promising for white, but simply 14...Qxg4 seems to kill the whole idea.