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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored (Read 15891 times)
BladezII
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #13 - 02/09/06 at 03:14:05
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"I have noticed that all Dragon books that cover the following line: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Nxc3 behave as though 13.Qxc3 is now forced, Neither Ward, Golubev, Gufeld, Levy, Schneider, Rogozenko, Kosanovic and more recently Dearing even consider 13.Bxc3 and I wonder why is that as this is a perfectly reasonable if not popular option."  TopNotch
And I agree with LostHighway--"I suppost black could play for the draw with 13…Qxd2+ 14.Bxd2 Rb8 15.b3 Rd8 and then transfer his g7 bishop via Be5 to Bd6.  But, it’s only a draw at best."  

But I will add that it is a draw at best for Both sides.  White has no shadow of advantage in my opinion.

I also found this game--

[Event "corr"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1988.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Brenkova"]
[Black "Zelezny, J."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B76"]
[PlyCount "38"]
[EventDate "1988.??.??"]
[Source "Chess Mail Ltd"]
[SourceDate "2005.07.27"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 Nxc3 13. Bxc3 Qxd2+ 14.
Bxd2 Be6 15. Kb1 Rfb8 16. c3 Rb7 17. Ba6 Rb6 18. Be2 Rab8 19. b4 a5 0-1


Angry
  
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emoskow(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #12 - 01/26/06 at 11:56:50
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very similar but even more advantage for white as black avoided qb4 game is on icc as well as on this site see thread moskow-martinez
  
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parisestmagique(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #11 - 01/26/06 at 09:42:46
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Hy Mr Moscow. I did not founf your game but one of Lahno of 2005 wich indeed seems convincing for white : 9.000 d5 10.exd Cxd5 11.CxC bxC 12.Bd4 CxCç3 13.Qxç3 Bh6!+ 14.Be3 BxB+ (blacks leads by 2 checks to love!) 15.QxB Qb6 16.Qxe7 Be6 17.Qa3 a5! 18.Bd3 Qb4! (for Shneider Black leads by 3 ! to love ! enough for equality ?) 19.Be4 QxQ 20.bxQ Rab8 21.Bxç6 Bxa2 22.Be4 Rfç8 23.Kd2 novelty and white won.

Your game was like this ?
  
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emoskow
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #10 - 01/25/06 at 16:44:48
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look at my victory over im marcel martinez from miami game in icc library as well as chessbase, i not an e4 player won a critical game in convincing style on the white side this line stinks for black maybe a draw grovel on a good day, not the way to go im sure
  
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parisestmagique(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #9 - 01/25/06 at 16:17:05
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In the Schneider book of 2000, for him the ultimate line after 9.000-d5 10.exd5-Cxd5 11.Cxç6-bxç6 12.Bd4-Cxç3 13.Qxç3-Bh6+! 14.Be3-BxB 15.QxB-Qb6 16.Qxe7 Be6 with conterplay enough for a draw. Do you know why is it not more often played by black (fear of the draw ?). Thanks.
  
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emoskow(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #8 - 01/25/06 at 12:08:17
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I agree the defense after na4 is painful must be something better after 000 would reexplore golubobs work after nd7 in the long vanderweil line after be3. yes im cryptic but those in the know understand what im talking about, beat sagafos norway in bc4 dragon and drew bentsen sweden after bc4 0-0 got a gm scalp westerinenin in slav(boring game ) check icc
  
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parisestmagique(Guest)
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #7 - 01/25/06 at 10:54:39
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Quote:
Quote:
@lost
Did you find a clear "=" after Bxd4?

gewgaw -

Yes, 13.Qxd4 Qb6 and black is at least equal in all lines.

- Lost Highway

Sadeasy equality after Qb6 ?! maybe equality but certainly not easy after Na4!
  
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TalJechin
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #6 - 09/07/05 at 07:39:46
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Quote:
I have noticed that all Dragon books that cover the following line: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Nxc3 behave as though 13.Qxc3 is now forced, Neither Ward, Golubev, Gufeld, Levy, Schneider, Rogozenko, Kosanovic and more recently Dearing even consider 13.Bxc3 and I wonder why is that as this is a perfectly reasonable if not popular option.


Actually, Attila Schneider did mention it too (in his own book without Sapi), giving the same line as Tiv but without any names afterwards. But I can understand why you didn't see it, as the index in the beginning is difficult to navigate.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #5 - 09/05/05 at 20:56:56
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Quote:
Isn't 13...Qxd2+ just equal and easy to find?

Goncalves,T - Souza,J [B76]
Brasiliense op BRA (1), 1988

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Nxc3 13.Bxc3 Qxd2+ 

[Tiviakov: 13...Qc7? 14.Bxg7 Kxg7 15.Bc4± 1-0 Hellers,F-Hansen,C/Copenhagen 1991.] 

14.Bxd2 

[Tiviakov cites the following line in his book 'B75-76': 14.Kxd2 Rd8+ 15.Bd3 Bf5 16.Bxg7 Bxd3= Alterman, A. Vajsman.] 

14...Be6 15.b3 c5 16.Bf4 c4 17.Bxc4 Bxc4 18.bxc4 Rfc8 19.Rd7 Rxc4 20.Bc7 Bh6+ 21.Kb2 Bg7+ 22.Kc1 Rc3 23.Re1 e6 ½-½



Thanks TalJechin, I wasn't aware that this possiblity was mentioned in the literature. 

Looks like Tiviakov's monograh is the only one that takes notice of it.

Perhaps this monograph though dated is still worth aquiring after all, as I tend to appreciate thoroughness, among other qualities in an author. 

Thanks everyone for the various replies. 

Toppy Grin
  
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lost highway
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #4 - 09/05/05 at 07:16:33
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Quote:
@lost
Did you find a clear "=" after Bxd4?

gewgaw -

Yes, 13.Qxd4 Qb6 and black is at least equal in all lines.

- Lost Highway
  
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TalJechin
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #3 - 09/05/05 at 06:44:19
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Isn't 13...Qxd2+ just equal and easy to find?

Goncalves,T - Souza,J [B76]
Brasiliense op BRA (1), 1988

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Nxc3 13.Bxc3 Qxd2+ 

[Tiviakov: 13...Qc7? 14.Bxg7 Kxg7 15.Bc4± 1-0 Hellers,F-Hansen,C/Copenhagen 1991.] 

14.Bxd2 

[Tiviakov cites the following line in his book 'B75-76': 14.Kxd2 Rd8+ 15.Bd3 Bf5 16.Bxg7 Bxd3= Alterman, A. Vajsman.] 

14...Be6 15.b3 c5 16.Bf4 c4 17.Bxc4 Bxc4 18.bxc4 Rfc8 19.Rd7 Rxc4 20.Bc7 Bh6+ 21.Kb2 Bg7+ 22.Kc1 Rc3 23.Re1 e6 ½-½

  
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gewgaw
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #2 - 09/05/05 at 05:29:36
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@lost
Did you find a clear "=" after Bxd4?
  
The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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lost highway
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Re: 9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
Reply #1 - 09/04/05 at 20:33:51
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Yes, that is strange.  I suppost black could play for the draw with 13…Qxd2+ 14.Bxd2 Rb8 15.b3 Rd8 and then transfer his g7 bishop via Be5 to Bd6.  But, it’s only a draw at best.  However, why play 12…Nxc3? When 12…Bxd4! is available?

- Lost Highway
  
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TopNotch
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9.0-0-0 - An obvious possibility ignored
09/04/05 at 17:36:13
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I have noticed that all Dragon books that cover the following line: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Nxc3 behave as though 13.Qxc3 is now forced, Neither Ward, Golubev, Gufeld, Levy, Schneider, Rogozenko, Kosanovic and more recently Dearing even consider 13.Bxc3 and I wonder why is that as this is a perfectly reasonable if not popular option.  Grin   

What the books are fond of mentioning is that after 13.Qxc3 Bh6+ 14.Kb1? loses to e5. Surely if that obvious tactic is worth a comment, then 13.Bc3 deserves some attention too.

The following illustrative game by GM Ferdinand Hellers serves to show that the move should be taken seriously.  

[Event "Politiken Cup 13th"]
[Site "Copenhagen"]
[Date "1991.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Hellers,Ferdinand"]
[Black "Hansen,Carsten"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B76"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Nxc3 13.Bxc3 Qc7 14.Bxg7 Kxg7 15.Bc4 Bb7 16.h4 h5 17.g4 Rad8 18.Qe3 Rxd1+ 19.Rxd1 hxg4 20.fxg4 c5 21.h5 e5 22.Qg5  1-0

Ok Dragonites, what say you on this illusory issue. 

Toppy Grin

  
The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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