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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 7...exd4 in the classical (Read 18041 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #11 - 09/21/05 at 09:57:08
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Castlerock, 

I actually meant Bc8-h3.  Sorry about the confusion.
  
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woofwoof
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #10 - 09/21/05 at 04:48:25
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" the fianchettoed bishop has nothing to do except provide the king with some cover (& protect e5 pawn). Probably the only time it gets active is during the ending stage as the pawn storm is most often supported by the Rs, Kts & Q. "

Oh yes! I forgot..... The Indian  bishop can be activated in this line where after ....f5 /exf5 gxf5 thus black has a mobile pawn ctr. (pawns on e5 & f5). In this type of position black may opt to move e4 -opening up the diagonal later on. Otherwise f5 maybe played keeping the bishop in. The other option of course would be to leave the mobile ctr alone & pursue play on the open g file 1st before advancing e4 hence allowing the Bishop to join in the K-side siege.
  

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castlerock
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #9 - 09/21/05 at 04:33:05
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This would explain the apparent paradox in the KID Classical that Black aims for a dark-squared bind, but often wins by playing Bc8-a3, which is clearly an attack via the light squares!


Bc8-a6 you mean?
  

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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #8 - 09/21/05 at 04:04:40
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I loved how Bronstein described light-squared and dark-squared weaknesses in Zurich, 1953.  He admitted that all this talk about dark-squared weaknesses didn't make sense to him until he realised that a dark-squared weakness also makes the squares in front of those dark squares weak.   

This would explain the apparent paradox in the KID Classical that Black aims for a dark-squared bind, but often wins by playing Bc8-a3, which is clearly an attack via the light squares!
  
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woofwoof
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #7 - 09/21/05 at 02:55:55
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The whole idea of that bishop in the KID is to support the e5 pawn which in turn exerts some infulence on d4. All this is consistant with the basic strategic aim of the KID which is to control  the dark squares. btw the black square influence is even more evident in the lines where white plays f3 in response to black's f5 & black advances to f4 & follows up with g5. Hence in the classical, it isnt good for black to liquidate the ctr by the exchange on d4. I'm with Smyslov-fan on this. Once in pawn storm mode, the fianchettoed bishop has nothing to do except provide the king with some cover (& protect e5 pawn). Probably the only time it gets active is during the ending stage as the pawn storm is most often supported by the Rs, Kts & Q.

However there are systems where that exchange is good - notably in some of the fianchetto systems & the Gligoric system. (not sure abt the saemisch)

@Smyslov - the Benoni too! I love it once i can get in Bd4.
  

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castlerock
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #6 - 09/21/05 at 02:42:02
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However, you need look no farther than the Grunfeld or Benko to realise that Black would love to be able to play Bg7-d4


Benoni, Saemisch, Dragon... the list is long, but not classical KID, imho. Here getting to d4 or finding useful target along the long diagonal may prove to be difficult. You probably can't get a target without making serious concessions. 

For example moving the c pawn will make the backward d6 pawn very weak. It's not a mate in 13 situation but this fact definitely gives white minute, stable edge
  

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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #5 - 09/21/05 at 02:09:16
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Castlerock, 

In many variations of the KID, the Bishop does indeed defend the Black King.  However, you need look no farther than the Grunfeld or Benko to realise that Black would love to be able to play Bg7-d4 or even a1 If White allows it.  The main idea behind the exd4 line seems to be to liberate the dark-squared Bishop.

You may be right that this is wrong-headed, which may help explain part of what is wrong with the whole idea.  Of course there are other, more immediate reasons to question releasing the tension so early.  This entire thread seems to support (in words rather than variations) the thesis that Gallagher and so many have stated:  7...ed4 is dubious at best.
  
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basqueknight
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #4 - 09/21/05 at 00:03:49
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very good point but then why does Glek play it, does he look for a different type of game then. one with out a pawn storm maybe the idea in this line is queen side expansion.
  
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castlerock
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #3 - 09/20/05 at 22:58:58
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Quote:


In this particular line, his dark squared Bishop is more active than in most KID lines where it's hiding behind the e5 pawn.


I always thought g7 Bishop should be doing defensive duty till the ending in classical KID setup. After all, with the king side pawns going down the board  Wink black monarch will feel pretty lonely.

In theory, trying to activate dark square bishop early, may prove to be counter productive.
« Last Edit: 09/21/05 at 01:05:23 by castlerock »  

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basqueknight
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #2 - 09/20/05 at 22:42:30
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Oh i my self play Nc6 i was just wandering about the general assesment. 

  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 7...exd4 in the classical
Reply #1 - 09/20/05 at 21:19:58
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BK said

Quote:
...Black just wants to activate his dark squared bishop.  This looks promising. Granted with out the e pawn it will be harder to start a big pawn storm but i think it looks very playable.


In this particular line, his dark squared Bishop is more active than in most KID lines where it's hiding behind the e5 pawn.  The more important problem for Black is that his standard dreams of a king-side pawn storm are not going to be realised.  Teyko found some interesting ways to play as Black in this line, but I agree with Gallagher's general assessment that White is better.  White's play is very natural and has a ready-made Maroczy Bind type of position where Black doesn't have much leverage against the e4 square.   

I know that all I've written so far is very (very) general, but Black's problems are broad. Black is the one that needs to come up with concrete lines to begin to prove his idea is sound and overturn about 50 years of theory.  I still believe that Black's best move instead of 7...ed4 is 7...Nc6, entering the main line of the Mar Del Plata (also known as the Classical) King's Indian.   

If you have a specific line you'd like to analyse from this tabiya (basic position), please let us know!
  
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basqueknight
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7...exd4 in the classical
09/20/05 at 10:20:26
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In starting out the kings indian Gallagher mentions a variation in his 7th move alternatived for black it goes as folows: 1. d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 Bg7 4 e4 d6 5 Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7. 0-0 exd4. He later goes on to say white always seems to have a small edge in this line. I am looking at it in unbiased eyes and thining well black just wants to activate his dark squared bishop.  This looks promising. Granted with out the e pawn it will be harder to start a big pawn storm but i think it looks very playable. 

What are your thoughts on this line. 

  
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