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Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives (Read 37892 times)

MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10778 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #38 - 10/30/05 at 15:24:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	"5 c3, 5 ...Nf6 will not necessarily lead to a Giuoco Piano" This I do not understand: 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Bc5 5.c3 (best since 1850 or so) Nf6 and 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 look very much the same to me. All authors I am aware of - Estrin, Botterill, Palkovi amongst others - think that 6.o-o belongs to the Italian (3.Bc4 Bc5) and not to the Two Knights. It is true, that 6.o-o dxc3 7.Nxc3 transposes back to the Scottish Gambit (some would even say Göring Gambit) but White has stronger: 7.e5! Jeremy Silman's website has an article on 6.b4. Palkovi (and I) does not trust it because of Bb6 7.e5 d5 8.exf5 dxc4 9.b5 o-o!? Berend-Barle, Debrecen 1992. Maybe White can improve. 5...d3 6.b4 Bb6 7.0-0 d6 8.a4 a6 9.Qxd3 gives White a solid edge.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1976 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #37 - 10/30/05 at 06:04:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	Like Willempie, I was under the impression that, after 4 ...Bc5, 5 0-0 d6(!) (5 ...Nf6 is also obviously possible, with a likely transposition to a Giuoco Piano) was rather inferior for White (6 c3 Bg4!) and 5 c3, the Scotch Gambit, clearly best. The material on ChessPub seems to bear this out -- can anyone confirm or contradict this? After 5 c3, 5 ...Nf6 will not necessarily lead to a Giuoco Piano, though it probably will: instead of 6 e5 or 6 cd White could play 6 0-0, when after 6 ...Ne4 (6 ...dc!? unclear?) we have a Two Knights (with 4 d4). 6 Bg5 and 6 b4 have also been seen, the latter claiming a distinguished scalp in double-quick time in Romero Holmes--Estremera Panos, Leon 1989. These may not be dangerous, but I'd still like to know what the best defence is. As an alternative to 5 ...Nf6, 5 ...d3 has been widely criticised, but, like Keene & Jacobs in their 1996 book on 1 ...Nc6 systems, I'd like to know why. After 6 b4 Bb6 7 0-0 d6 8 a4 a6 9 Qb3 White may have an initiative, but why is it dangerous? After 9 ...Qe7 10 a5 Ba7 neither 11 Bg5 Nf6 nor 11 b5 ab appear to offer White an advantage. Can anyone tell me what, if anything, I'm missing here?


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #36 - 10/29/05 at 20:55:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: @Willempie: I was move ordered by GM Izeta in a game back in 1992. My analysis then was that 5.c3 was better than theory suggested... (I played 5.0-0 d6 and lost, and was rather annoyed. The game started 1.e4 Nc6. If interested I could try to rescue/remember tha analysis...) I seem to recall that it was a very interesting line indeed. I lost interest because I found the Max-Lange bad news! Trick is that after 5 c3 (which is I think the best) black just replies Nf6 and you are back in main line Giuco (I have won at least 5 serious games by that transposition). The main problem is that every book about Scottish gambits and especially the repertoire ones dont take Bc5 seriously and assume that a c3 move will always transpose after dxc3. If you play 0-0 like you did, you have an ideal situation for black. He can develop easily and is a pawn up for the moment.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Fernando Semprun Senior Member Offline Be nice to others. Life is to be enjoyed! Posts: 402 Location: Madrid Joined: 04/29/03 Gender:	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #35 - 10/29/05 at 14:59:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	The max Lange looks bad for white and that specific line you mention pretty much one of the many problems...

	Fernando Semprun
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Fernando Semprun Senior Member Offline Be nice to others. Life is to be enjoyed! Posts: 402 Location: Madrid Joined: 04/29/03 Gender:	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #34 - 10/29/05 at 14:57:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Out of curiosity how do you deal with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Bc5? Do you play 5.0-0 (the others are fun if you know your italian as black)? Because I used to play 5 .. d6 and pick up points as white was "out of book". @Willempie: I was move ordered by GM Izeta in a game back in 1992. My analysis then was that 5.c3 was better than theory suggested... (I played 5.0-0 d6 and lost, and was rather annoyed. The game started 1.e4 Nc6. If interested I could try to rescue/remember tha analysis...) I seem to recall that it was a very interesting line indeed. I lost interest because I found the Max-Lange bad news!

	Fernando Semprun
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Athomick YaBB Newbies Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 12 Location: UK Joined: 09/26/05 Gender:	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #33 - 10/14/05 at 04:44:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Does anyone know of any improvements for white in the line: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d4 exd4 5. O-O Bc5 6. e5 d5 7. exf6 dxc4 8. Re1+ Be6 9. Ng5 g6 Theory seems to recommend 10. Qf3 O-O 11. Rxe6 fxe6 12. f7+ Kh8 13. Nxe6 Qe7 14. Bg5 Qxf7 15. Qxf7 Rxf7 16. Nxc5 but this seems at best equal for white.


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Athomick YaBB Newbies Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 12 Location: UK Joined: 09/26/05 Gender:	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #32 - 10/11/05 at 12:38:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think that Bxd6 used to be the main line but 11.c4 is a more modern (and relatively unexplored) move. It is yet to be fully assessed hence the discussion. I have played 11.Bxd6 a couple of times and drawn but the truth seems to be that black is a little better unless improvements can be found against the 2 brutal wins of Jonny Hector. As for 11.....Bb4, if black wants an advantage perhaps the search needs to veer towards 12.Ng3 Qg6 13.h4 h6 (h5!?) 14.h5 Qh7 15.Bd2. Otherwise it looks pretty drawish.


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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #31 - 10/10/05 at 01:33:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	White could also consider 14.Nd2 (instead of 14.Rc1),0-0 15 Qb3 (Qf3) to answer 15...d5 with 16.Qg3. I noticed that on 11.c4 GM Wedberg preferred 11....Bb4. Finally I noticed that white-players preferred 11.Nxd6 over 11.c4 after which 11...cxd 12.Bf4, Qd5 seems better for black than 12....Qc5.


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BladezII Senior Member Offline Member of chesspublishing .com and STC Club Posts: 409 Joined: 11/01/04	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #30 - 10/10/05 at 01:18:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: I'll give one line which i've been looking at. Following elysium's analysis: After 10...Bd6 11.c4 h6 12.Nxd6 cxd6 13.Bf4 Qc5 14.Rc1 0-0 15.Nd2 Qb4 16.Ne4!? Qb2 17.Re2 Qb6 18.Nd6 both sides have options here but I think I prefer white (dont think Bg4 here helps black). Opinions? After 17.Qf3 White is completeley in charge; I mean he decides wethear play goes on or he extends his hand and offer draw. IMHO. Another option to consider is 16.Ne4!? Qb2 17.Re2 Qb6 and here 18.Rd2 with idea of 18... d5 19.c5 followed by Nd6 and plans of Rd3-Rg6 or Rc2 and invading down the c-file.

	I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #29 - 10/08/05 at 11:17:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	@Mnb what does Emms give against 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 d4 exd4 5 O-O Bc5 6 c3 Nxe4 7.cxd4 d5 8.dxc5 dxc4 9 Qxd8 Kxd8? I agree that it doesnt give white more than equality after 10 Rd1+ Bd7 11 Be3 Ke7 12 Na3 Be6 13 Nb5 Rhc8 but maybe Emms has some additional idea for black since he thinks 9 Qe2 is better.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #28 - 10/07/05 at 02:02:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	On the anti-maxlange. I dont think black needs to panick. The Bc5-variation (instead of Bd7) seems fine to me. Also see my post " italian two knights strange variation" which features an interesting piece-sac for black (with thx from the suggestion by Mnb.
	« Last Edit: 10/08/05 at 10:55:31 by micawber »

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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10778 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #27 - 10/06/05 at 09:00:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	Answering from memory is dangerous, but if I remember well 10.Re1 leads to interesting positions. Maybe I have to modify this post this evening. IMO it is not a good idea to exchange queens voluntarily, when you play a gambit. Indeed: 10.Re1 f5 (Bf5? drops a piece) 11.Nc3 o-o 12.Nxe4 fxe4 13.Qxe4 Bf5 14.Qh4 Rad8 =.
	« Last Edit: 10/06/05 at 22:44:42 by MNb »
	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #26 - 10/06/05 at 07:02:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: "What is the current state of Theory for this line?" Emms in his book The Open Games for Black calls it underestimated. The critical line is Nxe4 7.cxd4 d5 8.dxc5 dxc4 9.Qe2!? with chances for both sides. After 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 d4 exd4 5 O-O Bc5 6 c3 Nxe4 7.cxd4 d5 8.dxc5 dxc4 9.Qe2!? What about 9 .. Qd3? Seems like a complete equaliser while I'd personally prefer 9 Qxd8 for white and take my chances in an endgame with iniative.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Paddy God Member Offline The truth will out! Posts: 965 Location: Manchester Joined: 01/10/03 Gender:	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #25 - 10/05/05 at 15:59:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: I have posted a bibliography here, with links to Morss's (not Markovich's) articles mentioned above: http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~goeller/urusov/perreux/links.html I think you will find that "Markovich" is the Chess Pub forum handle of Mark Morss. All the "Hard Chess" material is still well worth a look.


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10778 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #24 - 10/04/05 at 20:52:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	"What is the current state of Theory for this line?" Emms in his book The Open Games for Black calls it underestimated. The critical line is Nxe4 7.cxd4 d5 8.dxc5 dxc4 9.Qe2!? with chances for both sides.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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