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Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives (Read 37869 times)

urusov Full Member Offline Posts: 147 Location: Kenilworth Joined: 08/04/05	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #23 - 10/04/05 at 12:49:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	I have posted a bibliography here, with links to Morss's (not Markovich's) articles mentioned above: http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~goeller/urusov/perreux/links.html


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photophore Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 203 Location: Montesson Joined: 09/25/04 Gender:	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #22 - 10/04/05 at 08:14:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	One of the "anti Max Lange" is Corden-Estrin variation 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 d4 exd4 5 O-O Bc5 6 c3 that one can also get via the Italian What is the current state of Theory for this line?


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John Simmons Guest	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #21 - 10/04/05 at 06:33:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hello, Markovich had some great articles on Max Lange and so-called anti MaxLange lines, under his Hard Chess columns. Don't think the analysis in this thread has "damaged" those articles yet, and they were posted in 2001 or so. Think you can still find them, with a bit of googleing. Bye John S


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urusov Full Member Offline Posts: 147 Location: Kenilworth Joined: 08/04/05	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #20 - 10/04/05 at 04:45:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	I have posted a PGN and java applet devoted to a line in the Max Lange that will likely interest people reading this thread: http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/kenilworthian/2005/09/modern-horowitz-variati... You can see some analysis of related lines posted periodically at my blog: http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/kenilworthian I wish there were a way to get to the Max Lange without letting Black play he Anti-Lange lines with Nxe4 though, since those seem rather equal, as the analysis above suggests. But many still go in for the Lange proper in the belief that it offers Black more winning chances than the Anti lines which most view as deadly drawish.


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elysium YaBB Newbies Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 6 Location: Canberra Joined: 09/29/05	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #19 - 10/03/05 at 20:11:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: After 10...Bd6 11.c4 h6 12.Nxd6 cxd6 13.Bf4 Qc5 14.Rc1 0-0 15.Nd2 Qb4 16.Ne4!? Qb2 17.Re2 Qb6 18.Nd6 both sides have options here but I think I prefer white (dont think Bg4 here helps black). Opinions? I prefer black after 18...Rad8, white's pawns on c4 and a2 are weaker than Black's. eg 19.Qd3 Qa6 20.Rce1 Ne7, with the idea of putting pressure with rooks on the d and c files. 21.Nxf7!? Bxc4 22.Nxh6+ Kh8 23.Qh3 Bxe2 24.Nf5+ might not be so fun for Black though. Also, instead of 16...Qxb2, could Black try Rad8/Rfd8, without taking the pawn on b2 of course (as that would probably transpose above)


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Athomick YaBB Newbies Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 12 Location: UK Joined: 09/26/05 Gender:	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #18 - 10/03/05 at 17:40:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'll give one line which i've been looking at. Following elysium's analysis: After 10...Bd6 11.c4 h6 12.Nxd6 cxd6 13.Bf4 Qc5 14.Rc1 0-0 15.Nd2 Qb4 16.Ne4!? Qb2 17.Re2 Qb6 18.Nd6 both sides have options here but I think I prefer white (dont think Bg4 here helps black). Opinions?


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Athomick YaBB Newbies Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 12 Location: UK Joined: 09/26/05 Gender:	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #17 - 10/03/05 at 17:23:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	OK guys here is what I think. B 8...Qh5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Bg5 Bd6 11.c4 h6 12.Nxd6 cxd6 13.Bf4 Qc5 I think this is the best line for black against 11.c4 and good analysis by elysium. I have analysed this position on and off for about a year. I can't find a concrete line for white which obviously gives white the advantage but I have this unshakeable feeling that whites position should be good here. If you run a computer program on it you should see that white has many options while black has to tread a careful path. Anyway is anyone interested in the full blown Max Lange?


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #16 - 10/03/05 at 13:48:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: My turn. Analysis based on two sources: Euwe's Theorie der Schach-Eröffnungen, reworked by Heyken and Fette (1988 ) and Pachman's Moderne Schachtheorie (1980). A 8...Qa5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Neg5 (10.Bd2 Qf5 11.Bg5 Bd6! is equal; 10.Bd2 Bb4! 11.Nxd4 Nxd4 12.c3 o-o-o! offers winning chances - to Black) o-o-o 11.Nxe6 fxe6 12.Rxe6 Qf5! 13.Qe2 h6 14.Re4 (14.Nh4 and 14.Bd2 are worse) g5 15.Bd2 Bg7 (=P) 16.Re1 Bf6 17.h3 h5 (=HF) 18.h4 g4 19.Ng5 =Engelbert-Kreuzkamp, Hamburg-ch 1993. It is not dead equality though; one might say with chances for both sides. B 8...Qh5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Bg5 Bb4 (Bd6 is also equal) 11.Nxd4 (11.c3? dxc3 12.bxc3 Ba5 13.h4 Qg4!) 11.Nxd4 Qxd1 12.Rexd1 Nxd4 13.Rxd4 Ba5! 14.Nc5 Bb6 and maybe, very maybe White can keep a tiny edge with 15.Rad1 o-o 16.Nxe6 fxe6 17.R4d2 (my only contribution). C 8...Qd8 / 11.Bh6? (11.Rf4 o-o 12.Nxc6 is dead equal since Ragosin-Botvinnik, Leningrad 1930) fxe4! 12.Bxf7 Rf8! 13.Qh5+ Rf7 14.Rd1 Qd6! 15.Nd5 (15.Ndb5 Qf4) Nxd4 16.Rxd4 Bf5 17.Nf6+ Qxf6 18.Bxf6 Bxf6 19.Qxf5 Bxd4 20.Qxe4+ Re7 and Black wins (HF). I am very eager to learn, how White can improve on this. I also recommend English speaking chess players to consult books in German - it is not necessary to invent the wheel for the second time. 4...Bc5 5.o-o? is inferior to 5.c3 Nf6 6.o-o!? which is the same as 4...Nf6 5.o-o Bc5 6.c3!? and has been debated in other threads of the Italian. In B, 10...Bd6 is indeed equal, sez I. We usually say, "re-invent the wheel," by the way.

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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #15 - 10/03/05 at 13:46:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: a) 8...Qa5 gives some chances of equality deep into the ending if black knows very deep theory. b) 8....Qh5 is always slightly worse for black although with best play he is only slightly worse. c) 9...Qd8 is worse. There is no way for black to gain equality in this line. I don't agree with the second statement. Black is fully equal after 8...Qh5, I opine. I would be very happy to hear how White is to demonstrate his alleged slight advantage.

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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #14 - 10/03/05 at 05:42:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	5 .. Bxd4 is supposed to be the "refutation". Havent looked at that line for ages, but there were some tricky lines involved.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Norman Stephenson Guest	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #13 - 10/03/05 at 05:31:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, you talk about The Max Lange - but there's a route that Maxie himself possibly never used [unmentioned on this site so far] ... 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Bc5 4 0-0 Nf6 5 d4 whereupon your average Giuoco defender [unlike his Two Knights cousin] could find himself in uncharted territory if he continued 5 - ed 6 e5 d5 7 exf6 etc. OK, I know that Pinski has called this 5 d4 "a silly gambit" but ... Hey - is he all-knowing ? [by the way, I think he is a terrific author and I have all his books ... his "Benko Gambit" is a masterpiece and I've bought 4 copies already - I'm not even waiting for Xmas to give these to my friends/coachees].


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elysium YaBB Newbies Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 6 Location: Canberra Joined: 09/29/05	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #12 - 09/29/05 at 07:18:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	c) 8...Qh5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Bg5 Bb4 (Bd6 11.c4 Much work needs to be done here and black needs to tread carefully to reach an equal position but I'm interested to know opinions) After 10...Bd6 11.c4 h6 12.Nxd6 (12.Bh4 0-0 13.Nxd6+cxd6 14.Bg3 Bg4 15.Bxd6 Rfd8 16.Bg3 Bxf3 17.Qxf3 Qxf3 18.gxf3 -/+) cxd6 13.Bf4 Qc5 14.Rc1 0-0 15.Nd2 (15.a3 a5 16. Nd2 d5 17.Nb3 Qb6 18.c5 Qb5 19.Bd6 Rfe8 20.Nxd4 Qxb2 should be okay maybe) Qb4 16.b3 d5 17.cxd5 Bxd5 18.Nc4 Rfe8 looks good for black.


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Athomick YaBB Newbies Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 12 Location: UK Joined: 09/26/05 Gender:	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #11 - 09/28/05 at 04:02:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks that's nice analysis and I havn't read the sources. a) 8......Qd8/11.Bh6 The best line I can find for white so far is a forced draw with fxe4! 12.Bxf7 Rf8! 13.Qh5+ Rf7 14.Rd1 Qd6 15.Nb5 Qf4 16.Nd5 Qf2+ 17.Kh1 Bd7 (forced?) 18.Nf6+ Bf6 19.Nc7+ Ke6 20.Nd5+ Kf7 21.Nc7+etc b) 8...Qa5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Neg5 o-o-o 11.Nxe6 fxe6 12.Rxe6 Qf5! 13.Qe2 h6 14.Re4 g5 15.Bd2 Bg7 16.Re1 Bf6 17.Qd3!? Now if 17.........g4 18.Rf4 Qd3 19.cd gf3 20.Rf6 fg2 21.Kg2 My sence is that whites active pieces give him slightly better chances. c) 8...Qh5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Bg5 Bb4 (Bd6 11.c4 Much work needs to be done here and black needs to tread carefully to reach an equal position but I'm interested to know opinions) 11.Nxd4 (11.c3 dxc3 12.bxc3 Ba5 13.Ng3 (instead of h4) Qg6 14.h4 h6 15.h5 Qh7 etc But I need convincing that this line works for white) 11.Nxd4 Qxd1 12.Rexd1 Nxd4 13.Rxd4 Ba5! 14.Nc5 Bb6 an improvement now is 15.Nxe6 fe 16.Re4 and black is struggling.


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10778 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #10 - 09/27/05 at 20:57:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	My turn. Analysis based on two sources: Euwe's Theorie der Schach-Eröffnungen, reworked by Heyken and Fette (1988 ) and Pachman's Moderne Schachtheorie (1980). A 8...Qa5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Neg5 (10.Bd2 Qf5 11.Bg5 Bd6! is equal; 10.Bd2 Bb4! 11.Nxd4 Nxd4 12.c3 o-o-o! offers winning chances - to Black) o-o-o 11.Nxe6 fxe6 12.Rxe6 Qf5! 13.Qe2 h6 14.Re4 (14.Nh4 and 14.Bd2 are worse) g5 15.Bd2 Bg7 (=P) 16.Re1 Bf6 17.h3 h5 (=HF) 18.h4 g4 19.Ng5 =Engelbert-Kreuzkamp, Hamburg-ch 1993. It is not dead equality though; one might say with chances for both sides. B 8...Qh5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Bg5 Bb4 (Bd6 is also equal) 11.Nxd4 (11.c3? dxc3 12.bxc3 Ba5 13.h4 Qg4!) 11.Nxd4 Qxd1 12.Rexd1 Nxd4 13.Rxd4 Ba5! 14.Nc5 Bb6 and maybe, very maybe White can keep a tiny edge with 15.Rad1 o-o 16.Nxe6 fxe6 17.R4d2 (my only contribution). C 8...Qd8 / 11.Bh6? (11.Rf4 o-o 12.Nxc6 is dead equal since Ragosin-Botvinnik, Leningrad 1930) fxe4! 12.Bxf7 Rf8! 13.Qh5+ Rf7 14.Rd1 Qd6! 15.Nd5 (15.Ndb5 Qf4) Nxd4 16.Rxd4 Bf5 17.Nf6+ Qxf6 18.Bxf6 Bxf6 19.Qxf5 Bxd4 20.Qxe4+ Re7 and Black wins (HF). I am very eager to learn, how White can improve on this. I also recommend English speaking chess players to consult books in German - it is not necessary to invent the wheel for the second time. 4...Bc5 5.o-o? is inferior to 5.c3 Nf6 6.o-o!? which is the same as 4...Nf6 5.o-o Bc5 6.c3!? and has been debated in other threads of the Italian.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Max Lange Attack (and Anti Max Lange) lives Reply #9 - 09/27/05 at 17:46:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	Out of curiosity how do you deal with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Bc5? Do you play 5.0-0 (the others are fun if you know your italian as black)? Because I used to play 5 .. d6 and pick up points as white was "out of book".

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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