Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) KID Saemisch as Black:  World Championship Rnd 4 (Read 16413 times)
lnn2
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1504
Location: nc
Joined: 09/22/04
Re: KID Saemisch as Black:  World Championship Rnd
Reply #11 - 10/02/05 at 21:47:43
Post Tools
Quote:


The only time White castles K-side is in the Orthodox line (where black plays e5, Nc6 & the thematic f5)


My apologies, but i don't understand the relevance and correctness of this if you mean the Classical. Surely there are other lines where White leaves his king in the centre/0-0-0 like Makagonov (5. h3).

And if you refer to Samisch 6. Be3 e5, white almost never castles kingside.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
woofwoof
God Member
*****
Offline


chess is like life

Posts: 929
Location: Singapore
Joined: 07/04/05
Gender: Male
Re: KID Saemisch as Black:  World Championship Rnd
Reply #10 - 10/02/05 at 21:14:50
Post Tools
in addition to what i wrote earlier, i'm just guessing that its because of the added flexibility found in the Panno  which explains why there are more Panno systems adopted against the saemisch rather than the Byrne.
  

"I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong." - Murray Walker
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
woofwoof
God Member
*****
Offline


chess is like life

Posts: 929
Location: Singapore
Joined: 07/04/05
Gender: Male
Re: KID Saemisch as Black:  World Championship Rnd
Reply #9 - 10/02/05 at 20:59:41
Post Tools
Quote:

Does Moro only ever castle q-side when he plays the Saemisch as White?


It is a very common practice for white to castle Q-side & pawn storm the K-side ala Yugoslav attack in the Saemisch Byrne & Panno. The only time White castles K-side is in the Orthodox line (where black plays e5, Nc6 & the thematic f5)

So while in the Byrne, black concentrates mostly on Q-side expansion, The Panno usually begins with Q-side expansion but is flexible enough to shift the attack to the ctr & K-side as & when he deems fit. So the Panno is actually a more complex system to learn.
  

"I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong." - Murray Walker
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: KID Saemisch as Black:  World Championship Rnd
Reply #8 - 10/02/05 at 15:58:11
Post Tools
Alias, 

I think you're probably right, but the problem for White in the entire game was that he never seemed to have control of the game.  White was always dancing between consolidating his advantage and falling apart.  In the end, we know he landed on the wrong side. I do blame the opening to some extent for White's difficulties later on, but I want to see some professional analysis too.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Alias
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1512
Location: East of the river Svartån
Joined: 11/19/04
Re: KID Saemisch as Black:  World Championship Rnd
Reply #7 - 10/02/05 at 09:11:55
Post Tools
I thought that white was better for most of the game, it was only when white made some poor exchanges entering the endgame black got into the game.
  

Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lnn2
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1504
Location: nc
Joined: 09/22/04
Re: KID Saemisch as Black:  World Championship Rnd
Reply #6 - 10/02/05 at 07:33:52
Post Tools
Morozevich is primarily a 1. e4 player. Actually this is the first time i've seen him play 1. d4, and he played not at all badly (of course he is 2700!). His loss seems more like time-trouble than anything else. Svidler played well too, so a draw would have been a fairer result.

For me king-safety is of paramount importance, so am not  keen on the Classical, which i think is actually more  complicated than the Samisch. But I do follow Bayonet theory with great interest on Mikhalevski's chesspub site Smiley 9. Nd2 is also intriguing after Sakaev's two beautifully-controlled victories over Fedorov recently...so many variations, so little time!

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: KID Saemisch as Black:  World Championship Rnd
Reply #5 - 10/02/05 at 06:53:18
Post Tools
About the move order finesse:  You may well be right that Svidler would have been very happy to play a Grunfeld, but he was obviously very well prepared with the Byrne Variation (Thanks Inn! I always get confused about the names of these variations of the Saemisch).

Inn, I agree with you and Dreev about castling king-side when Black shows too much interest on the queen-side.  I also agree with you that the Saemisch is the most positionally complex and flexible of all of White's options.   

Considering my general prediliction for "positional" play, this would be a natural addition to my arsenal.  However, I have so much faith in the Classical that I haven't found studying the labyrinths of the Saemisch necessary.   

I am sure that Svidler had something in mind against 0-0.  Does Moro only ever castle q-side when he plays the Saemisch as White?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lnn2
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1504
Location: nc
Joined: 09/22/04
Re: KID Saemisch as Black:  World Championship Rnd
Reply #4 - 10/02/05 at 06:43:09
Post Tools
agree with Bonsai..  Morozevich must have been hoping for 3. f3 d5, where theory is not so well worked-out.

But Morozevich didn't do too badly either in the Samisch KID. in fact I thought his position was rather playable until he lost the thread later on.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bonsai
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 622
Joined: 03/13/04
Gender: Male
Re: KID Saemisch as Black:  World Championship Rnd
Reply #3 - 10/02/05 at 06:31:39
Post Tools
Quote:
Maybe now that Svid has once again re-discovered the power of the KID, we will see more of it and less of the Grunfeld.

My suspicion would be that he was actually aiming for a Grünfeld and Morozevich just mover ordered him into a Sämisch with his early f3, but of course I'm just guessing.

It's good to see some non-e4 games, for a start...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lnn2
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1504
Location: nc
Joined: 09/22/04
Re: KID Saemisch as Black:  World Championship Rnd
Reply #2 - 10/02/05 at 06:09:41
Post Tools
There are two lines where Black opens up the queenside:   
the Panno and the Byrne system (a6/c6/b5). imho the Byrne is underrated, and a stronger system than the Panno. Great choice by Svidler!
 
And, there are two schools of thought on how to treat these lines as White.
 
The Chris Ward school (as you can see in his Controversial Samisch repertoire book) will for instance, play 0-0-0 and go for a mating race. Against the Panno, their choice would be 9. g4, 9, h4 and 9. 0-0-0. Against the Byrne, they will play like Morozevich did against Svidler.
 
The Alexey Dreev school believes in castling kingside whenever Black becomes too frisky on the queenside, thus transposing into a good Classical system where Black has been very "cooperative" by opening up the queenside for White Grin     So, against the Panno, White will play 9. Rc1, 9. Rb1 or 9. a3. And against the Byrne 1. d4  Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3  Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. f3 a6 6. Be3 c6 7. c5 or 7. Bd3! will both do the trick.
 
The strength of the Samisch lies in its flexibility. While the typical Samisch queenside-castle may be good for White after 6.Be3 e5 7. d5 , it is wiser to be more flexible in the Panno and Byrne. I tend to follow Dreev here and I don't think Black is okay.   Grin

Gallagher is a top KID expert who has spent a not inconsiderable amount of time on the Samisch, so believe him when he says 6... c5! is the best and most critical.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2211
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: KID Saemisch as Black:  World Championship Rnd
Reply #1 - 10/02/05 at 02:53:52
Post Tools
Maybe now that Svid has once again re-discovered the power of the KID, we will see more of it and less of the Grunfeld.

One can only hope.

Toppy Grin

  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
KID Saemisch as Black:  World Championship Rnd 4
10/02/05 at 01:33:54
Post Tools
Oh man, am I glad I don't play the KID Saemisch!

The game between Alexander Morozevich and Peter Svidler is precisely why I hate the White side.  Black has no right to go busting up the q-side in the KID, yet in the Saemisch, that's exactly what happens!  Clearly White has better than what Moro played, but what?  Will we see Moro trot out the Saemisch again in this tournament, or is it broken beyond repair for this event?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo