please vote if you are interested in the game.

You must go to 

http://www.chessworld.net/chessclubs/forums_thread_show_one_posteronleft style.asp?forumid=7733&ThreadID=2889326#message2921361 
 

but make sure you go to the "Play " drop down menu (upper left hand corner) and then look for "World Team Games"

after you recognize which game it is (it is the Saemisch game) click on the game and then on the right click on joint the world team.  after you click on it, then move on the board and that will submit your vote or, you can type the move and then click submit.

I'm not pretending to give any analysis at this point.

My vote would be for 9...h5 over 9...Nh5.

Quote:


Inn2,

Before we end the discussion, which I found very beneficial, could you answer 3 yes and no questions?

1.  after  14. Ne2 Be5 
15. g3 fxg3 
16. hxg3 h4 
17. f4 Bg7 does Dreev suggest 
18. Qd3 

?

the other 2 questions depend.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. f3 O-O 
6.Nge2 c5 7. d5 e6 8. Ng3 exd5 9. cxd5 Nh5 
10. Nxh5 gxh5 

11. Bd3 f5 
12. O-O Nd7
13. Bc2 f4 

But here GM Gallagher and  GM Reinderman both recommend 

13... Ne5 
14. Ne2 Ng6 

Instead of the move analyzed by GM Dreev,  14... Qh4

15. exf5 Bxf5 
16. Bxf5 Rxf5 
17. Ng3 Rf7 
18. Nxh5 Bd4+ 
19. Kh1 Qh4 
20. f4 Raf8 

20...  Re8 was the move played by Reinderman and the game ended in a draw, Black was OK.

But after 20...  Raf8, Black is very nicely placed and White's pieces are not very active at all and white is thinking about defense here.  The immediate threat here is ....Ne5 (!) the pawn is pinned, and then Ng4, brute but direct.  Not easy since if White tries

21.g3 ?   Qh3 white gets into a bit of trouble.

or 

21. Bd2 Ne5 ! Black plays it anyway and is looking great with an undisputable initiative.

" edit: Anyway, looking at informator 79, Dreev-Peng Xiaomin went 11. Bd3 f5 12. 0-0 12. 0-0 Nd7 13. Bc2(N) Ne5 14. Ne2! Qh4! 15. f4! (annotations by Dreev), after Black knight moves, White's idea is exchange twice on f5 and play Ng3. So 11. Bd3 is not bad either.  Also in this variation it does not seem scary to allow Black to play f4, because after that White can even attack the f4 pawn. "

So does anyone suppose that while White seeks his plsy in "attacking" the f4 pawn Black will sit around and do nothing?

After Dreev's analysis of 11.Bd3 f5  12.0-0 Nd7  13.Bc2 (his suggested improvement)

what about 

13... f4 ?

and I give the following plan/set -up for attack--
Be5, Qf6, march up my strong foot soldier h4-h3, Rf7, move the knight, Bd7 (or Bxh3 if applicable at some time) bring the rooks to the g file, and Black has plenty of play.  Those of us Black players who play the Classical lines and know how to set ut the attacks in these kinds of positions, will find themselves at home in my opinion.

My preference for the Panno vs the Saemisch is another matter and you can find some of my opinions in a post about the saemisch somewhere else.   

Who said there is only one correct way to fight the Saemisch ??  If there is more than one way to fight the Saemisch and fight it hard, I like them.  There is nothing wrong with that.

But now I want to make it really clear that the term best move does not fit here in my opinion.  The only thing that I see is this, on move 9...., if Black wants to play a more strategically complex set up with more chances to win AND lose (due to the complexity of the issue), then 9...h5.

If Black wants to play a game where there is more chances of drawing the game and less chances of winning, because of the lack of strategically complex struggle, then 9 ...Nh5.  After the 9...Nh5, the issue is more forceful from one point of view and more simplified from another point of view.

On  a highly complex strategic struggle there are many many paths one can take that have no obvious tactical consequences and those give the highest chances to win/lose since of the many roads.

Quote:



Is 11.Bf4 not your preference now?  The line I was disscussing is 11.Bf4 and only 11.Bf4.   I was not including 11.Bd3 at all.   

Your post does not seem to want to engage the discussion of the 11.Bf4 line now.  I am thinking that now you want to talk about 11.Bd3.  May I ask why you why are you referring me to another line ?  Or why are we changing the subject, the subject of 11.Bf4?

Another point--

"about 9... Nh5, may i ask you to refer to standard sources like CBM/  NIC/ informator, where you can find "+= " everywhere, everywhere except Gallagher's books of course  "

Inn2, I have been around this game for a long long time (on Tues it will be 22 years of playing seriously).  And it is from my experience that I say that almost all bias players for one side will end their variations on a +/=  of their side.  GM Mikhalevsky, or however you spell his name, runs the website for KID in chesspublishing.com;  and he does this almost all the time.

I search for the truth, and I am not satisfied until I find it and many times even GM's give the wrong evaluation simply because their bias.

BladezII,  about 9... Nh5, may i ask you to refer to standard sources like CBM/  NIC/ informator, where you can find "+= " everywhere, everywhere except Gallagher's books of course   If you understand, i have no wish to give my entire repertoire here. But re your analysis, lets just say Black is always outrating White by 300 points 

edit: Anyway, looking at informator 79, Dreev-Peng Xiaomin went 11. Bd3 f5 12. 0-0 12. 0-0 Nd7 13. Bc2(N) Ne5 14. Ne2! Qh4! 15. f4! (annotations by Dreev), after Black knight moves, White's idea is exchange twice on f5 and play Ng3. So 11. Bd3 is not bad either.  Also in this variation it does not seem scary to allow Black to play f4, because after that White can even attack the f4 pawn.

Quote:


I tend to believe so. After 10.Nxh5 gxh5 White can play Bd3, 0-0, Ne2,Be3,Qd2,Bc2 etc not necessarily in the same order.

Black perhaps has the thematic attack with f5, Qf6-g6. Then what? To complete development black has to perhaps include Na6, Bd7 and start thematic Benoni play in the queen side. If it is nessary to continue play on the queen side, why expose king side so early? 

Of course, the position is rich and black has more than one plan. But, like Inn2, I too would vote for 9...h5

Hi Guys

Welcome on board our ROW game

In our current position after:-

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Nge2 c5 7.d5 e6 8.Ng3 exd5 9.cxd5 Line

What do you think of Nh5 here - is that inferior to h5?!

Here is our thread where you had some replies from yesterday:-

http://www.chessworld.net/chessclubs/forums_thread_show_one_posteronleftstyle.as...

Best wishes
Tryfon

Quote:


Check out Cebalo 4 months later in the same line:



[Event "Reggio Emilia 0102"]
[Site "Reggio Emilia"]
[Date "2001.12.27"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Zaja,Ivan"]
[Black "Cebalo,Miso"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "A65"]
1.d4 Nf6 
2.c4 c5 
3.d5 g6 
4.Nc3 d6 
5.e4 Bg7 
6.f3 0-0 
7.Nge2 e6
8.Ng3 exd5 
9.cxd5 h5 
10.Bg5 Qb6 
11.Qd2 Nh7 
12.Bh4 Nd7 
13.f4 Re8 

A major improvement over his last game

14.Bc4 a6?!
This is not as accurate.  Black drew this game on move 42.   

But....

[[14...  Bf6 ! was much better 
15.Bxf6 Nhxf6
16.h4

or else Black himself plays h4 and then the e pawn is gone.

16....   Nxe4 !   the e pawn  is gone anyway
17.Ngxe4  Nf6
18.Qe3  Nxe4 
19. Nxe4  Bf5  !

Black is clearly better ]]

granted, White could have improved.

Ward mentions 13. f4!? which went well in Khenkin-Cebalo '01.   
 
What does Gallagher say?   
Black's minor pieces look in a muddle, would have inserted a diagram here if I knew how!

Point two---"why move away from kingside when you started aggresion there with 9... h5?"

As you can see now this is just not correct.  Why?  Because it stems from misunderstanding why ...h5 is played in the first place.  After you truly understand why ..h5 is played in this line and that moment you will realized that Black is not fleeing from what he started.  Experienced KID players will know that Black often plays on one side then on the other, depending on the variation.

Black is enabling operations on the K-side and hindering White's play or his piece placement (Ng3) on the Kingside.  Black is also NOT restricted to K-side play here; he can play on the Q-side as well, again, this is also common in the KID in some/many lines.

"....though had the impression some players there are considering candidate move-by-move rather than plans."
Inn2

I don't know if this has direct reference to me, but if it is, let me make clear that kingcrusher said: "We are having a KID "Rest of World" voting game ....  We have on our team a correspondence GM Peter Coleman as well as several other high level players" 

Since it is a KID specific game AND the players are GM and other high level players there is no need to be explaining to them the principles behind chess openings or the specific moves.  It is a choice of what variation the majority wants to take.  I did not want to condescend and be giving them a seminar on the candidate moves and the ideas/plans behind them.


Now, I want to make a case for 9. cxd5 h5  
10. Bg5 Qb6 (this last move specifically).

Point one---According to Inn2, this move is useless or pointless after 11.Qd2. 

Point two---also disagreeing with Inn2 on the other point:  "why move away from kingside when you started aggresion there with 9... h5?" 

Point one-- Maybe some players just don't understand why ...h5 is played in the first place or they do, but... one or two moves later they forget.  The reason why Black plays ...h5 in the first place in this line.  The White knight spends two tempi to get to g3 and now will find itself on the move yet again, and moving the h-pawn might or might not have risks but, if he want to play ...f5 or even still have the viable option to do so later, he needs to get rid of the Ng3.

So white might logically decide to play

10.Bg5
When White, for the time being stops this idea.

10....  Qb6
This unpins the knight and gains a tempo by attacking b2.

11.Qd2 
White protects b2 and makes the move he "planned" to do anyway, White can also have the idea to play Bh6.

11.... Nh7 

The Bishop is attacked and questioned.  Let's remember, some people might forget, that Black wants to play h4 to move the Ng3.  The bishop moves away from g5 and h4 is possible now, and let's remember that 12.Bh6 is not possible thanks to the Qb6.  Last but not least, Nh7 was possible thanks to the Q-move, and b6 is not that bad of a place.  And here I doubt White is going anywhere.

I hope this has helped all those high level players and the GM or IM's partaking in this special KID game... yeah.  On a serious note, I did not ever think they ever needed this, they know this if they are on the KID team and are high level.

Kingscrusher: thanks for the forum link which makes interesting reading, though had the impression some players there are considering candidate move-by-move rather than plans.   FOr instance, I would say it doesn't matter whether Black chooses 9... Nbd7 or 9... a6 now since these moves get played sooner or later.   
The defining moments are the only two viable plans: plan with 9...h5, and plan with 9....Nh5.   
 
Regarding Ward's 9... h5 10. Bg5, the "problem" with it is 10... Qb6!? (i see this is recommended by Gallagher?!), which exploits early bishop sortie. This is precisely why Dreev prefers 10. Be2 to delay committing his dark-squared bishop, he waits for Black to commit his queen first.   
 
Anyway i have also played Ward's plan, and always thought that 10... Qb6 was useless since White was going 11. Qd2 anyway, so the Black queen is misplaced on b6!    Unpinning with 10...Qa5 is no good either: see Svetushkin- Valmana Canto 05 annotated on Chesspub. The problem with these queen moves is they are "inconsistent" with Black's 9... h5: why move away from kingside when you started aggresion there with 9... h5? the best solution is probably 10...Re8 followed by Nbd7-f8-h7.
 
Chris Ward's Samisch book is good, though nowhere near complete, more like Ward Playing the Samisch, and there is nothing on Dreev's 10. Be2.   

of course, I  will post my input as well.

I am busy right now, but I  will bring something to the table soon.

Long live the KING's Indian Defense !

Hi Andrew- Have we played a club match?! Some people have commented in the past that I look a bit like GK - shame I can't play like him 

Someone commented on our forum about Nh5:-

"All my considerations on 9… Nh5 were made before I looked at 10.Nxh5 gxh5 11.Bf4! Here we can see a typical problem that statistics can have. The statistics of 9… Nh5 look acceptable for Black because in most games 11.Bd3 occurred. The move 11.Bf4! however is much stronger although it was played very seldom. IMO 11.Bf4 is the refutation of 9… Nh5.
"

The relevant thread can be seen without logging in, is the following :-

http://www.chessworld.net/chessclubs/forums_thread_show_one_posteronleftstyle.as...

Nh5 is being seriously considered and is currently the choice of correspondence GM Peter Coleman

hi, you can quote me if you like.. but i am not much more a stronger player than you so you really ought to look at the position with your own eyes, and tell me what you think too!  must say computers are hopeless in Benoni-maneuvering positions, so 9... h5 is a good line to go into for correspondence chess. 

9... Nh5!?? is risky but very playable OTB, though probably not in correspondence when opponents have time to work out proper defence.

as a Dreev fan, must say he is not playing well this year (Eu Team, Karabakh), while Radjabov is now playing the best chess of his life, so won't look too much at the final result.
 
Line is question started with Dreev-Karpov (Karpov's first ever KID in Rekjavik Rapid'04!). Then Dreev improved on his own play and won brilliantly in Dreev-Nataf Calvia OL 04. Now Radjabov has improved on Nataf's play by pushing 17...f4! (already suggested in many places wherever Dreev-Nataf was analysed). But still I think White's position was probably playable, Dreev's real mistake appears to be 22. Rae1? which doesn't look logical to my eyes.  i would prefer to play either 16. f4 (despite the bad outing in Dreev-Karpov) or 16. exf5 gxf5 17. f4 at least preventing Black from gaining too much space.   
 
Ward generally likes early Bg5 as soon as Black plays h5 (preventing  ...h4),  it seems to me the more efficient approach, and for sure less provocative than Dreev's!