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Poll Question: Whats your personal educated opinion on the owens?
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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) The owens what do you think of it?? (Read 14327 times)
basqueknight
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Re: The owens what do you think of it??
Reply #17 - 11/13/05 at 18:15:00
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John Owen (1827 - 1901) was an English vicar and strong amateur chess player.

In 1858 he won a game against Paul Morphy, which led to a match between the two. Despite being given odds of pawn and the move (meaning he started the game with an extra pawn and always moved first), Owen lost the match 6-1, never winning a game.

His performance in the 1862 London tournament, the first international round-robin event (in which each participant plays every other) was more impressive - he finished third, ahead of future world champion Wilhelm Steinitz, and was the only player to win against the tournament winner, Adolf Anderssen.

Owen is the eponym of Owen's Defence, a chess opening he often played (including in his victory over Morphy) characterised by the moves 1.e4 b6 


He might not have been awesome but he played some good chess even if it was a little offbeat. 

  
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Re: The owens what do you think of it??
Reply #16 - 11/12/05 at 20:56:45
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Couldnt resist this, the only 3 games I found between the two on chesllive.de Tongue
Trhey're quite entertaining.

Not only is the opening defective (aka junk), it looks like Owens was a very weak player.  Blackburne was probably boozed up and he still squashed the guy like a bug.

- Lost Highway
  
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basqueknight
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Re: The owens what do you think of it??
Reply #15 - 11/12/05 at 00:17:00
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cant rember but it was a guy who was a tough player. Not sure if it was blackburne like said but ill check into it.
  
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Willempie
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Re: The owens what do you think of it??
Reply #14 - 11/11/05 at 06:16:59
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I think if they were to even see the games of historical interest from John Owen himself that would be enough to show that it was a respectable system. One player Blackburne i think in a match against John Owen opened every game as white with 1.g3. When asked why he replied "of course everything else loses to his 1...b6!"

Thats quite an insight.

Couldnt resist this, the only 3 games I found between the two on chesllive.de Tongue
Trhey're quite entertaining.
[Event "BCA-05.Kongress"]
[Site "London"]
[Date "1862.06.16"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Blackburne,Joseph Henry"]
[Black "Owen,John"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B00"]
1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 e6 4.Nf3 c5 5.c3 Nf6 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bxf6 Qxf6 8.0-0 cxd4 
9.cxd4 Nc6 10.Bb5 a6 11.Bxc6 Bxc6 12.Nc3 Bb4 13.Re1 0-0 14.Rc1 Rac8 15.Re3 b5 16.Ne5 Rfd8 
17.Rf3 Qh4 18.Nxf7 Rf8 19.Ne5 Bxe4 20.Rxf8+ Rxf8 21.g3 Qh3 22.Nxe4 d5 23.Nc5  1-0

[Event "BCA-04.Challenge Cup"]
[Site "London"]
[Date "1872.06.18"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Blackburne,Joseph Henry"]
[Black "Owen,John"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C00"]
1.e4 b6 2.Nc3 e6 3.Be2 Bb7 4.Nh3 Bb4 5.f3 Nf6 6.0-0 0-0 7.a3 Bxc3 8.bxc3 d6 
9.d3 Nbd7 10.Bg5 h6 11.Bh4 Qe8 12.f4 d5 13.e5 Nh7 14.Qd2 f6 15.d4 Qg6 16.f5 Qe8 
17.fxe6 Qxe6 18.Nf4 Qc6 19.e6 Nc5 20.dxc5 g5 21.Ng6 Rfe8 22.Rae1 gxh4 23.Qxh6 Rxe6 24.Bg4 Rxe1 
25.Rxe1 Re8 26.Ne7+ Rxe7 27.Rxe7 Qxc5+ 28.Qe3 Qxe3+ 29.Rxe3 Kf8 30.Rh3 Ng5 31.Rxh4 Kg7 32.Bf5 c5 
33.Rg4 Kh6 34.h4 Ne4 35.Rg6+ Kh5 36.Rg7 Kxh4 37.Bxe4  1-0

[Event "Manchester"]
[Site "Manchester"]
[Date "1890.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Blackburne,Joseph Henry"]
[Black "Owen,John"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B00"]
1.e4 b6 2.Nc3 Bb7 3.d4 e6 4.Bd3 Nf6 5.Nge2 d5 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Bxf6 Bxf6 8.0-0 Nd7 
9.exd5 exd5 10.Nf4 0-0 11.Nfxd5 g6 12.Be4 c6 13.Nxf6+ Nxf6 14.Qf3 Nxe4 15.Qxe4 f5 16.Qe6+ Kg7 
17.Rfe1 Qxd4 18.Rad1 Qf6 19.Rd7+ Rf7 20.Qxf7+ Qxf7 21.Ree7  1-0
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Willempie
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Re: The owens what do you think of it??
Reply #13 - 11/11/05 at 04:44:58
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Mr. Kasparov himself that both sides of the Najdorf are very anti-positional. and that the founding fathers of chess would probley ridicule any one who played in such a manner. This is on his DVD. I can see where it gets it Anti-Positional Properties though. a6 is not a piece move and black is going to fall very behind in development. It could be argued that because it doesnt imeadiatley try to gain more space in the center that that could also be a reason. 

I think Kasparov is referring to the classical (or dogmatic) positional approach as described by Tarrasch. He would abhor losing a tempo by a6 to be able to make the weakness-creating move e5.
Quote:

I dont know if it is just a bias or lack of respect for this opening choice which to me seems quite "regular"   
 
But alas i dont think they show a bust or refutation because there isnt one! Schiller and Watsons "the big book of busts" trys but its not really a bust at all just a big center with e4,d4,c4 all abreast in the center and trying ot gain space. But its hardley intimidation. 

I dont think there is a refutation, I just think it makes white life easier than say a Caro. There is a reason why in every "white repertoire" book it doesnt warrant a seperate chapter.
But some lines for you chaps, which all seem ok to me for white:
1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Nc3 e6 4.Bd3 f5 5.Nf3 fxe4 6.Nxe4 Be7 7.Ne5
1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Nc3 e6 4.Bd3 d6 5.Be3 Nd7 6.Qg4 Ne7 7.Nge2 Nf6 8.Qg3
1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Nc3 e6 4.Bd3 c5 5.Be3 cxd4 6.Bxd4 Nc6 7.Be3 Bb4 8.Qg4 Bxc3+ 
9.bxc3 Qf6 10.Ne2

Certainly not the truth, but some lines I came up with using my pocket set.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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basqueknight
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Re: The owens what do you think of it??
Reply #12 - 11/10/05 at 09:45:09
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The Najdorf is very much a positional variation.



Mr. Kasparov himself that both sides of the Najdorf are very anti-positional. and that the founding fathers of chess would probley ridicule any one who played in such a manner. This is on his DVD. I can see where it gets it Anti-Positional Properties though. a6 is not a piece move and black is going to fall very behind in development. It could be argued that because it doesnt imeadiatley try to gain more space in the center that that could also be a reason. 

But the owens! it self i believe has been reached via d4 and e4 . See Finegold-Blatny. Interesting game where i think Pavel had Ben but just couldnt bring it home.
  
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Re: The owens what do you think of it??
Reply #11 - 11/09/05 at 09:37:40
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[quote]I thought Owen's was strictly 1.e4 b6 (or positions where e4 is played early by white). The daring defences section is dedicated to 1.d4 openings. 
[/quote]

The Owen's certainly requires White to play e2--e4, but it nevertheless is classed as a Daring Defence on ChessPublishing. This may be an anomaly but it's so -- Glenn Flear does discuss the opening now and again in his section, and in fact there's an Owen's game in the current update.

I guess the reason(s) for this placement of the Owen's must be any or all of: (1) its connection with the English Defence; (2) its perceived "daring" qualities; (3) Glenn's being more interested in it than Andy.

  
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Re: The owens what do you think of it??
Reply #10 - 11/09/05 at 09:17:08
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Interesting that all these posts are in the 1 ...e4 Forum, rather than in Daring Defences -- does this mean the Owen's has now become mainstream? (There should be a smiley for "stirring" ...)


I thought Owen's was strictly 1.e4 b6 (or positions where e4 is played early by white). The daring defences section is dedicated to 1.d4 openings.

Quote:
I mean Think Najdorf! Very antipositional but still a favorite.


The Najdorf is very much a positional variation.
  
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Willempie
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Re: The owens what do you think of it??
Reply #9 - 11/09/05 at 08:10:24
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The reason I dont give any analysis is because I dont have any Grin
As I said I met it twice in my entire life and didnt experience any problems, which is why I never bothered to look into it.

Btw I'd prolly play 3 Bd3
  
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basqueknight
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Re: The owens what do you think of it??
Reply #8 - 11/09/05 at 07:57:34
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Always a pleasure hearing from you Mr.Ayton but i tried putting those ideas across on my original post. And yet no lines yet! 

I dont know if it is just a bias or lack of respect for this opening choice which to me seems quite "regular" 

But alas i dont think they show a bust or refutation because there isnt one! Schiller and Watsons "the big book of busts" trys but its not really a bust at all just a big center with e4,d4,c4 all abreast in the center and trying ot gain space. But its hardley intimidation.

I think if they were to even see the games of historical interest from John Owen himself that would be enough to show that it was a respectable system. One player Blackburne i think in a match against John Owen opened every game as white with 1.g3. When asked why he replied "of course everything else loses to his 1...b6!"

Thats quite an insight. I mean morphy crushed it in a match vs him but i mean hello paul was no fish he was probley the strongest in the world by about 1000 elo points if they would have excisted back then.

Other games of Not come from, Filipovic,Blatney,Gaprindashvili,Kramnik,Ivanov...so somthing about it that still appeals to some GMs.
If a GM is going to take the time to play it perhaps its not as bad as some of you think. If they can take home full points against equaly strong opposition maybe all of us should take a deeper look.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The owens what do you think of it??
Reply #7 - 11/09/05 at 07:39:52
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Interesting that all these posts are in the 1 ...e4 Forum, rather than in Daring Defences -- does this mean the Owen's has now become mainstream? (There should be a smiley for "stirring" ...)

Actually there's a serious point here. By putting Owen's posts in the Daring Defences Forum, where I placed my several recent posts on the opening, we surely increase the chances of Glenn Flear seeing and responding to them (either in the Forum or in an update). Isn't that important? Is Andrew Martin similarly interested? (I know he's interested in the Hippo.)

For myself, I'd love it if those who feel White can get a bigger advantage against the Owen's than against more "regular" openings would -- in any Forum -- indicate which concrete lines they think achieve this and which they think don't. I'm not suggesting they're wrong -- I'd just like something to bite on!

  
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Re: The owens what do you think of it??
Reply #6 - 11/09/05 at 02:29:20
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My own opinion, that the Owens is a good repertoire opening for certain players whose main ambition is to become a strong player, but not so good for a strong player to become a master, isn't in the list.   

The Owens is also a good surprise opening, but then in order for it to be a surprise, you'd have to invest quite a bit of energy into your main repertoire and make sure the Owen's never crops up, even by transposition unless you choose to make it so.

So, I abstain from the vote.
  
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basqueknight
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Re: The owens what do you think of it??
Reply #5 - 11/08/05 at 21:38:10
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what do you mean regular openings. I dont know if i have ever seen one. There are main streem and not main streem but i dont think you should ever call an opeing irregular! I mean Think Najdorf! Very antipositional but still a favorite. And basing your assesment on two games is not somthing i would call educated. I mean taking a look at some of its top players, the theoretical material available on it, different setups and etc. That would be educated. 

Can you show the agressived set up used in your games i would be interested in seeing your white side interpratation. 
I my self prefer 3.Nc3 after 2. d4.
  
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Willempie
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Re: The owens what do you think of it??
Reply #4 - 11/08/05 at 18:05:38
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Ok I'll give you mine. This is an opening I have met twice in a serious game and both times they got blown away. Just develop agressively keeping in mind a potential French and keeping in mind black doesnt have to castle short and you shouldnt have any problem. Imo (not humble in this case) is that the only advantage it has over other openings like the center counter (e4 e5 Nf3 d5) is that it is a bit more solid.

I am sure more advanced players will beat me with this opening, but I am also sure they have to play much harder than if they played a regular opening.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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basqueknight
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Re: The owens what do you think of it??
Reply #3 - 11/07/05 at 23:07:35
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I noticed that 7 people have said the owens is Junk with out saying anything going with there post. Guess i wasnt to clear. Any one want to say why they dont like it? Or are you affraid we could find improvements for black! 

Any way i go with flexible and Dynamic!

My choice is based widley on my own games. Some are pure owens others go the the hippo side some have a very early g5 and a king side storm others are french like with a slightly better bishop. I could also transpose in to a ducth which i have done a couple of times or i can go with the english defense on others. 

I can play quietly ala the french or agressively ala kings indian. The agression kings indian style comes from largeley the hippo variation but it is quite fun. 

Dont know what i prefer more than the other yet. Guess ill wait on Adrew Martins New book coming out soon. His Articles on the hippo are quite good and worth digging up on the internet. 

  
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