Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C10-C19: Nd2 or Nc3? (Read 18196 times)
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Nd2 or Nc3?
Reply #17 - 11/14/05 at 17:11:24
Post Tools
Willempie, 

I cringe when I see a scale listing aggressiveness on one end and "positional" on the other.  Haven't we learned yet that in order to be a "positional" chess player, one must be aggressive?  The opposite of aggressive is passive, which is bad.   

The opposite of positional is... what, anti-positional? computeresque?  Ok, I can accept a scale going from positional to Fritz.  I put myself firmly in the positional camp in that scale.

Great players who have considered themselves to be positional players tended to think more in terms of patterns (strategies) than just tactics.  However, these great players, such as Petrosian were also fully willing to attack and use tactics whenever possible.   

Mikhail Tal explained what he thought was the difference in styles when he analyzed a game he had played against Botvinnik.  Tal went through line after line while Botvinnik just kept pointing out ideas.  Tal realised after he had exhausted all his lines that Botvinnik was right.   

His conclusion was that both styles of analysis ended up in the right place, and both have strengths and weaknesses.  But he implied that he wished he had Botvinnik's positional sense.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
armtwister
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 19
Location: cochin
Joined: 07/03/05
Re: Nd2 or Nc3?
Reply #16 - 11/14/05 at 13:31:36
Post Tools
ok, thats about winawer then, i dont like to play only moves so 7.h4 is for me,and what about 4.e5 vs the classical, interestingly ,Vishy Anands and Garry Kasparovs score with 4.e5 in comparison to 4.Bg5 is only 'average',Anand manages only draws with Morozevich and Kasparov lost and drew with Radjabov.

Thanks
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Nd2 or Nc3?
Reply #15 - 11/14/05 at 12:23:02
Post Tools
All is relative Grin
If you'd make a scale from agressive to positional it would look like this: Qg4 h4 Nf3 a4. So yes it is an attacking move, but more restrained than Qg4 (about any variation in the french is more restrained btw). So I think that h4 may suit you better as with Qg4 you must really like knife-edge play, when black goes for Qc7. 

Iirc there is a thread about h4 from less than 2 months ago, so it may pay off to check there as well.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
armtwister
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 19
Location: cochin
Joined: 07/03/05
Re: Nd2 or Nc3?
Reply #14 - 11/14/05 at 12:14:09
Post Tools
Thanks willempie and casterock, but i wonder ,if 7.h4 is positional then what about 7.Nf3 and 7.a4? are they not positional, i thought 7.h4 is an attacking move...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: Nd2 or Nc3?
Reply #13 - 11/14/05 at 09:49:54
Post Tools
Quote:

As for the h4/Qg4 debate, that is also very difficult. Personally I like Qg4 better with white and with black


7.h4 is a positional line. Based on original poster's idea of attack 7.Qg5 would be a better choice.

As willempie says it is better to start with 4.e5 so as to reduce on the range of repertoire and after some time, branching off to 4.Bg5 makes sense.

That leaves Rubenstien and Fort Knox to take care of, though.
  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Nd2 or Nc3?
Reply #12 - 11/14/05 at 08:40:37
Post Tools
I have no clue if 4 e5 or 4 Bg5 is better.
However 4 Bg5 allows for more black variations, MacCutheon, Be7 and the Burn. Dont know if that is a major problem though.

As for the h4/Qg4 debate, that is also very difficult. Personally I like Qg4 better with white and with black Grin
I think that choice is really a matter of taste, for me the current hype about 7 Qg4 0-0 (Kindermann and Watson suggest this in their books) is a big point scorer when I have white. The older main line 7 .. Qc7 is one of the sharpest variations that exists in GM chess and can be really enjoyable to play (white or black).
7 h4 is a bit more restrained, but still going for initiative. So it is really subjective which to pick. I think 7 h4 is less good against the subvariations, but apart from Qc7 they are not very good for black anyway(you need to check them though).
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
armtwister
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 19
Location: cochin
Joined: 07/03/05
Re: Nd2 or Nc3?
Reply #11 - 11/14/05 at 08:21:54
Post Tools
Thanks guys for you replys,so Nc3 it is i suppose..i want to ask if 4.e5 or 4.Bg5 is best against classical and if 7.Qg4 or  7.h4 is best against winawer, and if white can play h4 against all subvariations in the winawer(6..Nc6,6.Qc7,6.Qa6 etc)

Thanks
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Nd2 or Nc3?
Reply #10 - 11/14/05 at 04:35:22
Post Tools
I only know Nd2 from the black side, to which I answer Nf6. Usually you get a very tense middle game with loads of tactical possibilities. Most of the other variations I have looked into are a lot less tense and therefore I dont play them.
Personally I play Nc3 and I must say I like the lines you give. They're not the absolute main line, but imo certainly not worse. The h4-line of the Winawer is quite a good one as I have found out to my discomfort. You may also want to look in some of the Qg4 lines as there are many similar ideas.
Whatever you choose, you wont avoid the Rubinstein, which imo is the black equivalent of the exchange.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: Nd2 or Nc3?
Reply #9 - 11/14/05 at 00:10:06
Post Tools
Original poster’s question is impossible to answer. Beauty of French, imho, lies in the fact that black can choose the pace of his game. After both 3.Nc3 and 3.Nd2 it black’s choice that is going to decide the whether the game is going to be tactical or strategic and tactical struggle or slow positional grind. We can say that to even KID but I think, it is much more pronounced in French.
  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Nd2 or Nc3?
Reply #8 - 11/13/05 at 21:11:55
Post Tools
Toppy, 

It's good to hear from you again. 

Of course you're right, the choice between Nd2 and Nc3 is indeed a matter of taste!  The question that was put before us was whether one or the other was better for an expert who describes himself primarily as an attacking player?

There is a third option that hasn't been discussed much.  White could play the Advanced Variation (3.e5) and play either the Anderssen line (Qg4) or play more like Sveshnikov, the greatest proponent of the Advance Variation since WWII.  It's a great attacking weapon that will certainly score against almost any class of player if you're willing to put in the work.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
basqueknight
Ex Member


Re: Nd2 or Nc3?
Reply #7 - 11/13/05 at 18:19:38
Post Tools
im sure by now that every one knows i prefer Nc3 going for the better game and hoping for the A-C attack. 

Sharp as a Katana but the tactics can be as blunt as club.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2211
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Nd2 or Nc3?
Reply #6 - 11/13/05 at 17:17:03
Post Tools
3.Nd2! and 3.Nc3 are neither stronger nor weaker than one another.

The choice is a matter of taste.

The Winawer carries strategic risks for White in that his pawn structure gets ruined beyond repair and must rely on dynamic features to compensate. The Tarrasch variation conversely has no structural flaws but the Knight on d2 does interfere temporarily with his completing piece development and also does fight for the centre as aggresively as 3.Nc3.

One must also note that both 3.Nc3 and 3.Nd2 can become fiercely tactical or subtley positional depending on the path chosen by both players. 

My personal preference is for the Tarrasch as I tend to value favorable pawn structures highly.

But as I said in the beginning it boils down to choice between to equally valid approaches.

Toppylov Grin
 
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10775
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Nd2 or Nc3?
Reply #5 - 11/13/05 at 06:14:26
Post Tools
I don't agree, that this reputation is undeserved. Drawing rates after 3...c5; 3...a6; and even 3...Be7 are very high.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Nd2 or Nc3?
Reply #4 - 11/13/05 at 00:16:35
Post Tools
White can get a great game when he plays the Tarrasch (3.Nd2).  This is especially true if your opponent plays 3...Nf6.  There have been many great attacking games where White can get a Bxh7 attack (not even a sac in some cases), a Nxd5 sac opening up lines, as well as many non-standard attacks.   

The reason you don't hear more about them in this thread is that the proponents of the Black side either have found specific lines that don't allow such attacking play at the cost of an exchange or other considerations, or perhaps the ...Nf6 French is playing within a "comfort zone" for Black.

Of course that was all speculation, but the GMs know how dangerous the White side of the Tarrasch is!  I figure that the choice is whether you wish to attack from move one, or build up an attacking position.  The greatest attackers tended to build up their attacks and many preferred 3.Nd2 which has an undeserved reputation as being a "quiet" opening in some circles.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
armtwister
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 19
Location: cochin
Joined: 07/03/05
Re: Nd2 or Nc3?
Reply #3 - 11/12/05 at 23:51:38
Post Tools
Thanks for your replys , but i wonder why some of the attacking GM's play the Tarrasch,like for example Tal,Alekhine,Kasparov,Magnus Carlson,Igor Nthaf,Arkaidy Naidish,Sergi Tiviakov etc..  ???
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo