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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C06: New move in Tarrasch (Nf6/Qc7/Bd6) variation? (Read 5551 times)
FreeRepublic
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Re: C06: New move in Tarrasch (Nf6/Qc7/Bd6) variation?
Reply #11 - 12/04/24 at 21:02:12
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FreeRepublic wrote on 11/20/24 at 15:14:47:
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. Bd3 c5 6. c3 Nc6 7. Ne2 cd4 8. cd4 f6 9. ef6 Nf6 10. O-O Bd6 11. Nf3 Qc7!?

White has a few moves. In declining order of popularity there is 12Bg5, 12Nc3, 12g3, 12h3, etc.

12h3 is very solid and can be found in Play the French (4) by Watson, and The Fully-Fledged French by Moskalenko. Watson has also provided updates at ChessPublishing. Watson on ChessPublishing:
"Popular, although not ambitious. Expect a long game."
"This move has been surprisingly effective and is one of White's most important attempts versus 11. ..Qc7."
Moskalenko FFF:  "A rather venomous plan aimed primarily at preventing the activation of Black's pieces."

12. h3!? O-O 13. Be3 Bd7 14. Re1!?

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Black's two major moves are 14...Rae8 and 14...Be8. 14...Be8 may be a little more forcing:

14...Be8 15. Ng5 Bf7 16. Rc1 h6 17. Nf7 Qf7 

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18. Bb1!? (18Ng3 is also possible). The quoted authors continue with 18...Rae8. I've also looked at 18...Nh5. For example 19. a3 g5 20. Qd3 Qg7 21. Kh1 Rf7.

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According to the engine, this position teeters on equal or slight edge for White. 12h3 may be the most annoying line for those who play 11...Qc7.

11...0-0 etc. is probably a better way to go to equalize. 11...Qc7 remains more popular because it is more aggressive. Maybe 3...c5 is the easiest way to obtain equality, once you find a line you like. Still, 3...Nf6 and 11...Qc7 lead to very interesting chess in many variations.
« Last Edit: 12/04/24 at 23:12:33 by FreeRepublic »  
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Re: C06: New move in Tarrasch (Nf6/Qc7/Bd6) variation?
Reply #10 - 11/21/24 at 00:08:09
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Recaping:

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. Bd3 c5 6. c3 Nc6 7. Ne2 cxd4 8. cxd4 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Nf3 Bd6 11. O-O Qc7 12. g3 O-O 13. Bf4 Ne4!? 14. Qc1 Qb6!?

A similar idea is

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. Bd3 c5 6. c3 Nc6 7. Ne2 cxd4 8. cxd4 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Nf3 Bd6 11. O-O Qc7 12. g3 O-O 13. Bf4 Bd7 14. Rc1 Ne4!? Simon Williams looked at 15Bxe4. Moskalenko looked at 15Ne5.
  
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Re: C06: New move in Tarrasch (Nf6/Qc7/Bd6) variation?
Reply #9 - 11/20/24 at 15:14:47
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Perhaps against my better judgment, I continue to look at these lines.

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. Bd3 c5 6. c3 Nc6 7. Ne2 cd4 8. cd4 f6 9. ef6 Nf6 10. O-O Bd6 11. Nf3 Qc7!? 12. g3!? O-O 13. Bf4 Ng4 14.Rc1 "CP:  This allows (and practically forces) the standard sacrifice on f4," ChessPublishing.

Black played 13...Ne4 14Qc1 Bd7 in the game Kosteniuk Alexandra (RUS)-Harika Dronavalli (IND) It Round 6 2015-11-26 which was eventually drawn.

Another possibility is 14...Qb6. For example 13.Bf4 Ne4 14. Qc1 Qb6 15. Qe3 e5!?

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A fine mess. Possibly continuing 16. Be5 Ne5 17. Ne5 Bh3 18. Be4 de4 19. Rfc1 Be5 20. de5 and now either 20...Qxb2 or 20...Qxe3 seem adequate.

Both sides have many options, probably too many to keep track of. While Stockfish16 favors White early on, Black has sufficient resources. In practice, there are pitfalls for both players.
  
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lost highway
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Re: New move in the Tarrsch (Nf6/Qc7/Bd6) variatio
Reply #8 - 11/19/05 at 08:30:43
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Quote:
I agree with you that 9. Nf4 is awkward and I haven't found a satisfying antidote. I make the provocative statement that black has only slim chances of playing for a win and actually needs to struggle a lot to draw.

Gueler -

Yes, that's right.  Black's best is 9...fe5 10.Nxe6 Qb6 with a difficult game.  However, white must still be careful.

- Lost Highway
  
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Re: New move in the Tarrsch (Nf6/Qc7/Bd6) variatio
Reply #7 - 11/19/05 at 05:34:12
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One goal for White with Qc2 is to forbid black queen going to g7. Here plan is possible with good play for Black.

15.Rac1 g5! 16.Bg3 (16.Bg6 Nf4 17.Bg3 Qg7 18.Bxf4 gxf4 19.Bd3 Kh8 20.Qb3 Bd7 21.Bb1 Rg8 22.g3 Raf8 ) Nxg3 17.hxg3 Qg7 18.g4 (18.a3 Bd7 19.g4 (19.Bb5 Rac8 20.Qd3 g4 21.Nh4 Rf6)  Rxf3 19.gxf3 Nxd4 20.Nxd4 Qxd4 21.Kg2 Rf8 ) e5 19.dxe5 (19.Qb3 Qf7 20.dxe5 Nxe5 21.Nxe5 Bxe5 22.f3 Be6) Nxe5
  
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Re: New move in the Tarrsch (Nf6/Qc7/Bd6) variatio
Reply #6 - 11/17/05 at 00:02:32
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Castlerock, 

Thanks for the game, I appreciate your help. 
An observation: I don't think that 16. Bg3 was the best move. After all, white wants to exchange dark squared bishops, which is the reason why white played Bh4 and black answered Nh5 to prevent it. 

But I liked the Bd7-e8-h5 idea, although this is nothing new in the Tarrasch. A nice side effect is also that 16. Bg6 is now facing Be8, which would not have been possible if White had played Bg6 a move earlier. In this respect S_F was right that a follow up with 16. Bg6 or 16. Bh7/Kh8/Bg6 wasted time with Rac1. By the way, after 15. Rc1 Bd7 16. Rfe1, 16. ... Rf3: is strong


Lost Highway,

I agree with you that 9. Nf4 is awkward and I haven't found a satisfying antidote. I make the provocative statement that black has only slim chances of playing for a win and actually needs to struggle a lot to draw. 

See Belov - Kozyrev, St. Petersburg, 2001
« Last Edit: 11/17/05 at 10:51:29 by Gueler »  
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Re: New move in the Tarrsch (Nf6/Qc7/Bd6) variatio
Reply #5 - 11/16/05 at 23:53:00
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Good point and even it weren’t it does not belong to this thread. You stole a post from me SF. Well, it’s a wrong statement!  Wink
  
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Re: New move in the Tarrsch (Nf6/Qc7/Bd6) variatio
Reply #4 - 11/16/05 at 23:41:57
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FYI, 

9.Nf4 has recently been discussed in another French thread.
  
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Re: New move in the Tarrsch (Nf6/Qc7/Bd6) variatio
Reply #3 - 11/16/05 at 18:04:11
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Gueler -

I don't know the answer to your specific question, but I've had very good results in online blitz against 8...f6 in 5 or 6 games by playing 9.Nf4.

- Lost Highway
  
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Re: New move in the Tarrsch (Nf6/Qc7/Bd6) variatio
Reply #2 - 11/16/05 at 13:04:12
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I've faced this position before in a game, with the Rac1.  White has just made a move that doesn't really help his game unless by transposition.  You can already begin thinking of ideas such as Rxf3!? and other such sacrificial attacks.  But I 've found that Black has to resolve the question of the light-squared Bishop first. (usually by ...Bd7) and only then look for activity.  But the good news is that Black now has the extra free move to do just that.   

Which is why I doubt you'll find any GM games with Ra/fc1 in that position.
  
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Re: New move in the Tarrsch (Nf6/Qc7/Bd6) variatio
Reply #1 - 11/16/05 at 11:55:12
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Which rook? Both the rooks seem to go there. Assuming it is 15.Rac1 I managed to find one game. My impulse would be to move the queen to a5 or b6 (I haven't analysed it) on the 15th turn. In the game, queen remained in c7 for eternity and still managed to win. 

Saunders,J (2200) - Frost,N (2109) [C06]
White Rose Int 2nd York (2), 25.01.2000

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4 8.cxd4 f6 9.exf6 Nxf6 10.Nf3 Bd6 11.0-0 0-0 12.Bg5 Qc7 13.Bh4 Nh5 14.Qc2 h6 15.Rac1 Bd7 16.Bg3 Nxg3 17.hxg3 Be8 18.Qd2 Bh5 19.Qe3 Rae8 20.Bb5 e5 21.Nxe5 Bxe5 22.dxe5 Rxe5 23.Qd2 Qb6 24.Nc3 Nd4 25.g4 Bxg4 26.Nxd5 Rxd5 27.Bc4 Rfd8 28.Rfe1 Kh8 29.Bxd5 Rxd5 30.Qf4 Qg6 31.Re3 Ne2+ 32.Rxe2 Bxe2 33.Rc8+ Kh7 0-1

  
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C06: New move in Tarrasch (Nf6/Qc7/Bd6) variation?
11/16/05 at 11:11:39
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I am having problems finding references to the following position:

1. e4 e6
2. d4 d5
3. Nd2 Nf6
4. e5 Nfd7
5. c3 c5
6. Bd3 Nc6
7. Ne2 cd4
8. cd4 f6
9. ef6 Nf6
10. Nf3 Qc7
11. 0-0 Bd6
12. Bg5 0-0
13. Bh4 Nh5
14. Qc2 h6
15. Rc1

of course there is plenty of material available on 15. Lg6 and 15. Lh7+, but not on 15. Rc1

I looked at it with Fritz 9 but couldn't find any game references. 

Thanks for your help
« Last Edit: 08/02/11 at 20:12:02 by dom »  
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