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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C02: Milner Barry Gambit (Read 30459 times)
condor
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Re: Milner Barry Gambit
Reply #19 - 01/22/07 at 15:09:50
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After 11 Qe2 Ne7 white should try 12 Be3! because the main line of Kh1 is too slow.

I've played this line through many times and have yet to find a refutation for black. A sample line might go (if white is lucky enough):

12...Qxe5 13 f4 Qd6 (Qf6 looks dodgy after 14 g4 or Bb6) 14 Bd4 Nc6 15 Be5 Qc5+ 16 Kh1 f6 17 Bc7 Nd4 18 Qh5+ Ke7 19 Rae1 and black has no good response. The line's main point is: white dominates the centre, ready to launch attacks on either side of the board, where ever black castles. If black swaps off the e5 bishop s/he is virtually forced to castle queenside because of the open f-file and run into trouble along the c-file.

I'm not saying this is a fool-proof victory for white but it definetly gives better attacking chances than Kh1.

So I am very interested in the outcome of 10..Qxe5.
  
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Re: Milner Barry Gambit
Reply #18 - 01/20/07 at 09:05:58
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10. Qe2 is "Sturm-Schmid" variation according to Harding

Before reading Watson's book, I wonder why 11.Qh5+ is a good move or not, after Keres 10...f6

Qh5 is a dubious move:  11...Kd8!  (11...Ke7 12.Be3! Qxd3 13.Bc5+ Kd8 14.Bxf8) 12.Qf7 Ne7 13.exf6 Qxf6 14.Qh5 g6 15.Qe2 Nf5 16.Bf4 Bg7 17.Nc3 g5 18.Bd2 with Watson assessment: unsafe position of Black king makes the balance with the deficit of two pawns
  

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Re: Milner Barry Gambit
Reply #17 - 01/20/07 at 00:45:05
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Thanks. I was aware of Nb5 but never really thought about Nxd5 except for one time when I did take the second pawn and it became an issue.. My main goals at these points has been to play Ng8-e7 and sometimes from there to c6 and to get the queen to a safer location. After that it's not a big deal to reorganize and use that extra pawn to good affect.

I will have to look at that line from Keres.


chk wrote on 01/19/07 at 13:14:59:
10. Nc3 develops quickly a piece (one of the main aims of this gambit) and also aims at:
a) Nb5 (attacking the Queen)-Nc7+ or similar, or
b) Nxd5 if the e6-pawn is pinned (i.e. after 10. ... Qxe5 11. Re1).
The Knight clearly belongs to c3, while the Queen may be better at f3 (supporting Bf4), or g4 (attacking g7), etc. in some variations. Moreover, White actually prefers (at least I!) to lure the Black Queen to take the 2nd pawn as he gains good attacking possibilities despite the pawn deficit.

Now, 10. Nc3 a6 11. Qe2 has similarities to 10. Qe2 in that it may result in a more positional game. White will play positionally (despite being a pawn down!), his pros being:
a) his greater space,
b) slightly better development (the Black Q will be harassed again), and
c) the use of d4 as a useful pivot point for his minor pieces.
The e5-pawn needs to be carefully defended (e.g. f4 may be needed) and gradually there could be prospects for a K-side attack..

Now, in case you are familiar with the strategic points I've made above and you only need some concrete lines, the most I could find is:

10. ... f6!? (suggested by Keres) 11. exf6 Nxf6 12. Rd1 Qh4; or 12. Nc3 Bd6!? 13. Nb5 Qe5 (Watson)

This looks quite different than the usual 10. Qe2 a6 11. Nc3 or 10. Qe2 Ne7 continuations, but I have not seriously analysed it to see if it works out well (and if it is the refutation?!?!?! Shocked)

Hope this helps..

  
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chk
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Re: Milner Barry Gambit
Reply #16 - 01/19/07 at 13:14:59
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10. Nc3 develops quickly a piece (one of the main aims of this gambit) and also aims at:
a) Nb5 (attacking the Queen)-Nc7+ or similar, or
b) Nxd5 if the e6-pawn is pinned (i.e. after 10. ... Qxe5 11. Re1).
The Knight clearly belongs to c3, while the Queen may be better at f3 (supporting Bf4), or g4 (attacking g7), etc. in some variations. Moreover, White actually prefers (at least I!) to lure the Black Queen to take the 2nd pawn as he gains good attacking possibilities despite the pawn deficit.

Now, 10. Nc3 a6 11. Qe2 has similarities to 10. Qe2 in that it may result in a more positional game. White will play positionally (despite being a pawn down!), his pros being:
a) his greater space,
b) slightly better development (the Black Q will be harassed again), and
c) the use of d4 as a useful pivot point for his minor pieces.
The e5-pawn needs to be carefully defended (e.g. f4 may be needed) and gradually there could be prospects for a K-side attack..

Now, in case you are familiar with the strategic points I've made above and you only need some concrete lines, the most I could find is:

10. ... f6!? (suggested by Keres) 11. exf6 Nxf6 12. Rd1 Qh4; or 12. Nc3 Bd6!? 13. Nb5 Qe5 (Watson)

This looks quite different than the usual 10. Qe2 a6 11. Nc3 or 10. Qe2 Ne7 continuations, but I have not seriously analysed it to see if it works out well (and if it is the refutation?!?!?! Shocked)

Hope this helps..
  

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Re: Milner Barry Gambit
Reply #15 - 01/18/07 at 19:54:57
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castlerock wrote on 03/12/06 at 06:16:12:
Just consider two safe winning lines for black. Both involve taking one pawn and returning it and liquidating into advantageous ending. 

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.c3 Qb6 6.Bd3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Bd7 8.0-0 Nxd4 9.Nxd4 Qxd4 10.Nc3 a6 11.Qe2 Ne7 12.Kh1 Nc6 13.f4 Nb4 14.Rd1 Bc5 15.Bxa6 Qf2 16.Qxf2 Bxf2 17.Be2 

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.c3 Qb6 6.Bd3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Bd7 8.0-0 Nxd4 9.Nxd4 Qxd4 10.Nc3 a6 11.Qe2 Ne7 12.Kh1 Nc6 13.f4 Nb4 14.Rd1 Bc5 15.Bxh7 Qf2 16.Qxf2 Bxf2 17.Bb1 0-0-0 18.a3 Rxh2+ 19.Kxh2 Rh8+ 20.Bh7 Rxh7# 

Line stops with move 17. Added the balance moves for the fun of it Wink

What is the point of 10. Nc3? I have had two people play the milner barry against me in blitz only to skip Nc3 and play 10. Qe2. Is the move order non-critical or am I just missing the refutation?

  
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Re: Milner Barry Gambit
Reply #14 - 03/12/06 at 15:11:20
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White can gambit only one pawn with: 7...cxd4 8.Qe2 (8.Re1; 8.a3) and after 8..Nge7 9.cxd4 Nxd4 10.Nxd4 Qxd4 11.Nd2 (with the idea Nf3-Harding)
  

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Re: Milner Barry Gambit
Reply #13 - 03/12/06 at 09:33:01
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The reason I'm curious about the 'two pawns' grab line, castlerock, is that in 'Play The French (3rd edition)', John Watson does not go into analysis into this, yet he claims Black "10... Qxe5 is doing brilliantly theorectically".

True, I agree with you that grabbing just the one pawn is the safe way of going about things here, however, I one of those people who takes quite a bit of convincing if no analysis is given to justify whether a position is good or not.
  
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Re: Milner Barry Gambit
Reply #12 - 03/12/06 at 06:16:12
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Just consider two safe winning lines for black. Both involve taking one pawn and returning it and liquidating into advantageous ending. 

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.c3 Qb6 6.Bd3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Bd7 8.0-0 Nxd4 9.Nxd4 Qxd4 10.Nc3 a6 11.Qe2 Ne7 12.Kh1 Nc6 13.f4 Nb4 14.Rd1 Bc5 15.Bxa6 Qf2 16.Qxf2 Bxf2 17.Be2 

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.c3 Qb6 6.Bd3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Bd7 8.0-0 Nxd4 9.Nxd4 Qxd4 10.Nc3 a6 11.Qe2 Ne7 12.Kh1 Nc6 13.f4 Nb4 14.Rd1 Bc5 15.Bxh7 Qf2 16.Qxf2 Bxf2 17.Bb1 0-0-0 18.a3 Rxh2+ 19.Kxh2 Rh8+ 20.Bh7 Rxh7# 

Line stops with move 17. Added the balance moves for the fun of it Wink



  

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Re: Milner Barry Gambit
Reply #11 - 03/11/06 at 18:50:58
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So, dom (or any others), curiously I've been looking at what to do as Black (in the main line? still), after 12. Nxd5 Bd6 13. Qg4 - stick my king to Kf8 perhaps.
  
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Re: Milner Barry Gambit
Reply #10 - 02/14/06 at 04:56:22
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Quote:
I been thinking of what I want to play against the Milner Barry recently. I usually take one pawn, but doesn't the main line usually go something like white playing rd1, then getting a discovered attack by moving the bishop on d3 (and taking a pawn with it), then black plays qf2, trades queens with white, etc.....


I thought that’s the safest, no risk way to handle Milner – Barry. Once you introduce …Nb5 before …Bc5, I think black reaches the winning ending. 

1)      For starters, black has a connected passed d pawn.
2)      Taking back either h pawn or a pawn have their down sides for white. For example, taking the a pawn often results in surrendering the Bishop for 2 pawns and taking the h pawn, (objectively better for white) results in a difficult ending for white.

My 2 paise
  

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Re: Milner Barry Gambit
Reply #9 - 02/13/06 at 01:39:21
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I agree completely with Dom. I also have looked at 11.Kh1, but despite White's good results I think Black here can simply take the second pawn.
10...Qxe5 is needlessly risky.
  

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Re: Milner Barry Gambit
Reply #8 - 02/12/06 at 15:55:17
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I think I gave variation I prefer...
Yes, if White tries Rd1 at some stage, Black has the idea of Qf2 trading queens...and it's good for Black. Playing an endgame without queens and a pawn less is no fun for White.
One typical variation is given in NJ Chess forum byPete Tamburro, with the comment: the old Rd1 was out of fashion after the famous "Potter memorial" tournament.
10.Nc3 a6 11.Qe2 Ne7 12.Rd1 Nc6! and so on (I will continue only in one specific thread) or 12.Rh1 Nc6 13.f4 (13.Be3!? Bohak attack) Bc5 (13...Nb4 14.Rd1 Bc5!? Piskov) 14.Rd1 Qf2 and Black is clearly better.

  

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Re: Milner Barry Gambit
Reply #7 - 02/12/06 at 03:31:02
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I been thinking of what I want to play against the Milner Barry recently. I usually take one pawn, but doesn't the main line usually go something like white playing rd1, then getting a discovered attack by moving the bishop on d3 (and taking a pawn with it), then black plays qf2, trades queens with white, etc.....

So I been thinking of taking the 2 pawns and going for more of an advantage (and blacks bishops are lined up toward blacks king also).

What line do all my fellow French players think is best?
  
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Re: Milner Barry Gambit
Reply #6 - 01/30/06 at 03:25:18
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Dom thanks for the reference to the French website!
  
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Re: Milner Barry Gambit
Reply #5 - 01/29/06 at 17:35:17
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No way.

I post my recorded lines:

11...Qb8 12.Nxd5 h5 13.Bd2 Bd6 14.h3 Bc6 15.Nb4 Bd7 16.Bc3 Nf6 17.Qf3 Rh6 18.Nd5! Bc6 19.Bxf6 winning for White

or 13.Bf4 Bd6 14.Qf3 Bxd6 15.Nxf4 Nf6 16.Qg3 and now

A) 16..oo 17.Qg5 White has still some attacking chances for the 2 pawns
B) 16...Rg8?! 17.Qg5 Qd6 18.Qad1 Qb4 19.Nxh5 Nxh5 20.Qxh5 and strong advantage to White
C) 16...Kf8 17.Qh4 unclear

but all variations must be analyzed deeply (I have not any game reference in my notes thus the lines must be checked).

  

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