Normal Topic C06: Nf6 Tarrasch Question (Read 2951 times)
dom
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Re: Nf6 Tarrasch Question
Reply #4 - 02/12/06 at 15:29:11
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OK 13.Bg3!? interesting and Black's strategy needs to be repaired. Maybe, 13...Bxg3 14. Nxg3 Bd7 playable, but now I prefer not playing Ng4.
  

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Martin Carpenter(Guest)
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Re: Nf6 Tarrasch Question
Reply #3 - 02/11/06 at 22:20:11
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Thanks for the all the useful info above - yes black would probably like to play (after Bg3) 13 .. Bxg3 14 NxB e5 but sadly there is something of a concrete problem with it. 15 de N(c/g)xe5 16 NxN NxN 17 Bxh7+ ^ Qh5+ x e5.

Yes you can play g6 or something then take on e5 next move but it doesn't seem ideal. Sadly Rxf3 ideas don't really seem to work with the white queen on d1.

Hence having to play e5 immediately and then often play Be5 x g3 later. 

(13 .. e5 14 Qb3 is maybe a refinement as it seems to force 14 .. Kh8. Not the end of the world but certainly a pain. Does let black try to keep his knight on g4 rather than the one on c6 though.).
  
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dom
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Re: Nf6 Tarrasch Question
Reply #2 - 02/11/06 at 10:42:01
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About the idea: 12..Ng4 13.Bg3!? compare with the line: 12.Bg5 Qc7 13.Bh4 Ng4! 14.Bg3 Bxg3 15.Nxg3 e5 16.dxe5 Ncxe5 17.Nxe5 Qxe5= thus
I will play (but I must check it) 13....Bxg3 14.Bxg3 e5
  

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Re: Nf6 Tarrasch Question
Reply #1 - 02/11/06 at 10:10:28
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Wow! good review of alternatives for the 12thmove  Smiley
(vote for the French Tarrasch ?)

I can't resist to share some lines I recorded after one game in rapid play with french GM-editor-trainer-paper writer David Marciano. (I have a good score against him beside of complety lost games  Lips Sealed )

12...Bxf4 13.Nxf4 Qd6!? (13...Ne4 main line; 13...Ng4 same ideas than previous post; 13...Qb6 maybe Watson will favour this move; 13...Qc7!?! where I was beatufully crushed in Khamrakulov-Laurain,Condom 2002) 

Now White can play 14.g3 ; 14. Qc1 or 14.Ne2  (and not 14.Qd2?? Ne4)

A) 14.g3 Qb4 (14..g6!? 15.Re1 Qb4 worth a try ; 14...e5 15.dxe5 Nxe5 16.Nxe5 Qxe5 Qb3 and small advantage to White ; 14...Bd7  Psakhis doesn't trust it but I am not convinced by the analysis ; 14...Ng4?! Matamoros's idea given karlzen on NJ Chess forum and  by Emms in FrenchTarrasch book) 15.Rb1 Bd7 16.Re1 Qb6 (16...Rae8 then 17.Bc2 or 17.a3 Qb6, no future for Black) 17.Bc2 Rac8=
 
One idea to remind is the fork with e5, but must be calculated precisely. 17...Rae8 18.b4 Nxd4 19.Qxd4 Qxd4 20.Nxd4 e5 21.Nfe6 Bxe6 22.Rxe5 +=
or 18...a6 19.h4 g6 20.a3 Kg7 21.Qd2 Nxd4 22.Qxd4 Qxd4 23.Nxd4 e5 24.Nfe6! Bxe6 25.Rxe5 += Vokarev-Volkov,St Petersburg 2000 (Psakhis Nd2)

B) 14.Qc1 Ng4!? (Dom) (not 14...Ne4 transposing to main lines or good lines for White after g3 or Ne2) 15.g3 e5

C) 14.Ne2 and now following David's advice, 14...Ng4 is the good move and not 14...Bd7 (Marciano-Laurain,rapid SteFoy d'Aigrefeuille 2004 ; Petrov-Radjabov,Moscou 1997 (Psakhis Nd2);Hakki-Knaak,Novi Sad 1990 (Psakhis Nd2)) . Then 14...Ng4 15.h3 (15.Ng3?! e5 16.dxe5 Ngxe5 17.Nxe5 Nxe5 and Black has a good game according to Psakhis because of misplaced knight on g3) Rxf3 16.hxg4 Rf7 17.f4 Qb4! forgotten move (17..Bd7 18.a3 Guseinov-Yakymov,St Petersburg 2001 (Psakhis)) 18.Rf3 g6

Note: it's better to play Qd6 before Ng4: 13...Ng4 14.Qd2! Qd6 15.g3 Bd7 (15...e5?! Zapata-Matamoros,Seville 1992 : basis idea for Qd6: play Qd6-e5-Qh6-and an attack) 16.h3!? or 16.Rfe1
  

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Martin Carpenter(Guest)
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C06: Nf6 Tarrasch Question
02/09/06 at 13:53:00
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Just something that has me slightly confused in the (ultra) main line after: 1 e4 e6 2 d4 d5 3 Nd2 Nf6 4 e5 Nd7 5 Bd3 c5 6 c3 Nc6 7 Ne2 cd 8 cd f6 9 ef Nxf6 10 Nf3 Bd6 11 o-o o-o 12 Bf4. Now obviously BxB ^ Ne4 etc is the main line, and 13 .. Ng4/Qd6 are known sidelines.

What I find slightly strange is the treatment blacks twelth move deviations. Psahkis & Pedersen only seem to treat 12 .. Nh5?!, 12 .. Nxd4?! and 12 .. Qc7?! which don't make sense. (or fail tactically in the case of 12 .. Nxd4). It seems odd to consider 12 .. Nh5 and not 12 .. Ne4/Ng4. Even 12 .. Kh8 with a vague (easily stopped) threat of 13 .. Nxd4 makes some sense since it's a mildly useful move after black plays e5.  It's rather slow though. 12 .. Ne4 just doesn't seem to work that well.

12 .. Ng4 however seems a fairly reasonable move since 13 BxB QxB 14 Ng3 e5 is known from 12 .. BxB 13 NxB Qd6 14 Ne2 (Qd2 is recommended here) Ng4 etc and meant to be fine for black. Similairly 13 g3 BxB 14 NxB is a known line (from 13 .. Ng4) and meant to be ok.

13 Qd2 is the move white wants to have played if black plays 13 .. BxB but it's not clear black has to: 13 .. e5!? 14 PxP NxP 15 NxN NxN seems reasonable. There are some rather annoying Nf3+ allowing Qg5+ x f4 ideas around. Still got dark squared bishops around.

I have a feeling that white's best might be 13 Bg3!? . Now swapping on g3 besides not making much logical sense also suffers from various Bxh7+ allowing Qxg4 etc ideas. Also development isn't so easy for black. So 13 .. e5 seems sensible and then eg 14 de Ngxe5 15 NxN BxN etc might be a way for white to try and get the usual kind of pull after a quick e5 break. Maybe the tempo from Bg3 is enough to keep this managable? 

So it's not any kind of wonder move. It is however *definetly* better than 12 .. Nh5 and I would say a lot more logical than the much better known 12 .. BxB 13 NxB Ng4!? (Why swap dark squared bishops first unless you're going for Rxf3 etc? You get a tempo on the f4 bishop anyway.).

I can appreciate that this is less fun than the exchange sac (although that's rather burnt out), it's also not that independent of course. Still it's confusing it's such a rare move and not mentioned anywhere - am I missing something big here?! Even if 13 Bg3 keeps a solid edge it's worth mentioning since it's not an immediately obvious move.
« Last Edit: 08/02/11 at 19:57:36 by dom »  
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