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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Uberdeker Defence (Read 74038 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #20 - 03/29/06 at 00:38:16
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I found his suggestion in the http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1143213361/0#0 thread.  It's the initial post of the thread.  Look under 1.d4 Nc6 where at first he suggests 2.e4 and then says 2.c4 e6 3.a3 also looks good for White.  Your suggestion of 3...f5 makes good sense to me.
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #19 - 03/25/06 at 13:29:05
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[quote author=Glenn Snow link=1142445517/15#18 date=1143233481]
Heh!, well I just meant the jury was still out.
CraigEvans says that 1.d4 e6 2.c4 Nc6 3.a3 favors White.  Did you already suggest a reply to that?  3.a3 Nf6 4.Nf3 would transpose to the "2-Knights Indian" or "Tango" variation.  Does White have anything better than 4.Nf3 and does Black have good alternatives to 3...Nf6?[/quote]

Dear Glenn,

 The jury's only just out, and I expect it to remain so for a long, long time. A good thing it is too. If a new opening was immediately accepted as being valid, there'd be no point in discussing it here. They've been trying to refute the Modern Benoni and Dragon for the past century now, and they've come pretty close, but there quite a few murky points that persist.

Where did Craig post his suggestion of 3. a3 ? A good answer is 3. ...f5, playing a Classical Dutch where the move a3 is more or less a wasted tempo.

                                                                               Regards,
                                                                                  Hubert
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #18 - 03/24/06 at 20:51:21
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Quote:
P.S. Glenn, what do you mean "seemingly" (just kidding)


Heh!, well I just meant the jury was still out.  Smiley
CraigEvans says that 1.d4 e6 2.c4 Nc6 3.a3 favors White.  Did you already suggest a reply to that?  3.a3 Nf6 4.Nf3 would transpose to the "2-Knights Indian" or "Tango" variation.  Does White have anything better than 4.Nf3 and does Black have good alternatives to 3...Nf6?
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #17 - 03/24/06 at 14:28:13
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1142445517/15#15 date=1143113544]
Against 1. c4[...] it's time I looked into 1. ...Ktc6!?
[/quote]
Actually, 2. Ktc3 e6 ; 3. e4 Ktf6 ; 4. Ktf3 e5 ; 6. d4 Bb4 transposes to a line I mentioned earlier : 1. c4 Ktf6 ; 2. Ktc3 e6 ; 3. e4 Ktc6!? ; 4. d4 e5 ; 5. Ktf3 Bb4. It's funny because it's usually [i]White[/i] who uses this line to avoid the Nimzo, not Black! If 2. g3, Black could play 2. ...e5, with a Reversed Closed Sicilian when he has avoided some early d4 lines and White is commited to the standard g3 development. So this seems to be a reasonable repertoire if you like these lines. 

[quote]=Glenn Snow] It amazes me that such a seemingly solid dynamic move (with many unique variations) can still be found on the second move! [/quote]

Actually there are more examples than you might imagine. I've got quite a few others up my sleeve, which I may share with you at some point. But then again I should probably keep some to myself because I'm not a very strong pratical player (bad nerves, bad memory, rather limited tactical vision) so these unknown lines are one of my main assets OTB.

Keep sending the flattering comments though!

                                                                        Regards,
                                                                            Hubert

P.S. Glenn, what do you mean "seemingly" (just kidding)
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #16 - 03/23/06 at 18:39:35
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As for 1. d4 e6 ; 2. Ktf3, well Black has plenty of options apart from 2. ...Ktf6, which is what I usually play. 
If he's an ...e6 Sicilian player and is comfortable with a d4/...e6 Symmetrical English, then 2...c5 is a good move.   
But 2. ...Ktc6?! ; 3. e4 d5 (is there another move?) 4. e5 (even stronger than 4. Ktc3) is an advance French without counterplay for Black.   


I'm going astray from the topic of the Uberdeker Defence but wanted to mention that 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 d5 4.e5 is completely lifeless for Black.  While it is probably better for White, (maybe by now it has been shown to be much better?) Black can often get good counterplay with 4...f6.  In fact Black has won a number of minatures in this variation.  Other moves that have been analyzed by Hugh Myers (and others) are 4...f5, 4...b6, 4...Qd7 and 4...Nge7.  I personally have only played 4...f6 and 4...f5.  Anyway, if there is actually interest in these variations then we should start a separate thread in the "1.e4 ...." section.

Back to the Uberkeder!  After 1.d4 e6 2.c4 Nc6 3.e3 the move 3...f5 is very interesting (or 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 f5).  Reminds me of the defence I dabbled in quite a few years ago (1.d4 e6 2.c4 Bb4+ 3.Nc3 [4.Bd2! Qe7 5.a3 Bxd2+ 6.Qxd2 is supposed to best if memory serves me correctly] 3...Bxc3+ 4.bxc3 f5.  I did OK with that but I like the Uberdeker quite a bit more now.  It amazes me that such a seemingly solid dynamic move (with many unique variations) can still be found on the second move!
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #15 - 03/23/06 at 11:32:24
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Erratum previous post :
[quote]  1. d4 Ktf6 ; 2. c4 e6 ; 3. Ktc3 Ktc6 is a valid alternative to 3. ...b6 and 3. ...Bb4+.[/quote]
It should of course be read 3. Ktf3.

Dear Strptzr,
 
I've already given my views on transpositional problems and there are no simple solutions.
The best attitude is perhaps to treat each opening move independantly, taking advantage of your opponent's move-order, rather than giving him the only extra options. 

For example, 1. c4 may be met by 1. ...b6, when White cannot reach the Main Lines of the English Defence with 4. Bd3. Of course, he himself can maintain the independant nature of the English Opening with 2. ...g3 or the Two Pawns' Attack, but these matters are for each individual player to work out within his own repertoire.

Since you've expressed interest in my repertoire here are some lines that I consistently employ. I usually answer 1. Ktf3 with 1. ...Ktf6 :
- 2. d4 e6 ; 3. c4 Ktc6 we've already discussed
- 2. c4 e6 ; 3. g3 a6!? is an interesting line of Kortchnoi's
- 2. g3 b5 is quite valid as well

I believe these lines form a coherent whole, while Black is not desperately trying to get his QP Defence against other moves than 1. d4

Against 1. c4 I play on and off 1. ...e6/1. ...Ktf6/1. ...b6 and even 1. ...e5 (mutual zugzwang!),
but it's time I looked into 1. ...Ktc6!?

                                                              Regards, 
                                                                Hubert

  
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Strptzr
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #14 - 03/23/06 at 09:38:50
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Interesting*, but I'm ever worried about consistency. How do you tackle flank openings (I mean transpositional tricks such as 1. Nf3 and such...) ?

*Maybe we should work this out to a chesspublishing repertoire.
  
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Uberdeker(Guest)
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #13 - 03/22/06 at 17:28:21
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Maintaining the independant nature of a position is an interesting subject.
The Two Knights' Indian is itself prone to transposition to the Nimzo, but Black may be happy that he has avoided a few critical lines.
In the UD, 3. Ktf3 may indeed be answered by 3. ...Ktf6, and I maintain that 
1. d4 Ktf6 ; 2. c4 e6 ; 3. Ktc3 Ktc6 is a valid alternative to 3. ...b6 and 3. ...Bb4+.
In this case Black has avoided the Nimzo and the 3. Ktc3 Two Knights'.
But he also has 3. ...Bb4+ if he's intent on maintaining independance. I should check this some time.   
As for 1. d4 e6 ; 2. Ktf3, well Black has plenty of options apart from 2. ...Ktf6, which is what I usually play.
If he's an ...e6 Sicilian player and is comfortable with a d4/...e6 Symmetrical English, then 2...c5 is a good move. 
But 2. ...Ktc6?! ; 3. e4 d5 (is there another move?) 4. e5 (even stronger than 4. Ktc3) is an advance French without counterplay for Black. 

Certainly, flexibility is a requirement for any valid opening repertoire. Rehashing the same moves against any reply is not likely to get you far, whatever you play!
  
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John Simmons(Guest)
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #12 - 03/22/06 at 17:23:19
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Hello Uberdeker,

Only started looking at these lines last night, so was only expressing my impressions. In the English with f3, the line 5... Qh4+ 6g3 does not look so promising to be after either  6...B*N or 6...Qh5 7Bd2 followed then by Nh3 to f4. Whilst, I agree that 5...e5 looks playable, it is not the sort of position that attracted me to this opening. Will check out, the Bd3 line, completely new stuff to me. 
              In the Uberdeker, if transpose to Nimzo with 4..Nf6 after 5 e3 d5 leads to positons from Botvinnik v Tal, discussed in book "Opening Preparation" amongst other places, think conclusion was black was ok. However, it seemed to me, position of Nc6, made it harder to play than other lines for black. From normal Nimzo move-order, would prefer to play the standard d5,c5 positions or those with b6 and d5 lines. Of, course such things are a matter of taste.
                If 4...d6 was intending 5g3 e5 6Bg2 maybe black as gained something compared to normal Bogo-Indian, delaying Nf6. Still looks a pretty sedate positon though. Also 5Bd2 looks pretty safe for white, if snore inducing.
    Personally, I am only looking at playing these type of openings, as black, in must win situations. Typically, against a significantly lower graded oppenent. So my attitude in suggesting 4Nf3, was to kill black's fun, not to find the objectively most dangerous line.

Bye John S
  
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Martin Carpenter(Guest)
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #11 - 03/22/06 at 16:38:06
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The Nimzo lines after 4 Nf3 Nf6 (here or Nf3 Nc6 in the Nimzo) seem decent enough - they're well covered in the recent Tango book from Everyman.

3 Nf3 might be more annoying here if white wants to play slowly (3 .. Nf6 4 a3 is iirc one the critical Tango lines which is still maybe ok for black. Not very independent though.).

2 Nf3 might a bit more annoying.... (2 .. Nc6 3 e4 etc is I suppose a main line Nimzowitch defence which is a bit marginal. No need to play Nc6 here of course Smiley).
  
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Uberdeker(Guest)
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #10 - 03/22/06 at 16:13:56
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Dear John,

As I've mentioned on the thread "English Defence", I don't consider 5.f3 to be the least bit critical. Black has 5. ...e5, 5. ...Qh4+ and  5. ...Kte7, all of which are both sound and interesting if you don't mind playing a closed manoeuvering game.
As for 4. Ktf3 against the UD Defence, 4. ...Ktf6 and 4. ...d6 intending ...f5 are both valid. I've always considered Ktf3 against the Nimzo to be a bit tame (shadows of 2. Ktf3 and 3.Ktf3) and I think ...Ktc6 is a satisfactory answer.
Where are these lines that you deem inferior for Black?

                                                                  Regards,
                                                                       Hubert
  
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John Simmons(Guest)
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #9 - 03/22/06 at 15:12:21
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Hello,

I very recently got interested in the English Defence, after looking at a few games of Speelman in Best games book.

However, after a bit of DB searching, seems black finds white's big centre hard to handle after the line,

1.d4 e6 2. c4 b6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4. e4 Bb7 5.f3 ...

especially since the line 5 ...f5 6. p*p Nh6 7. p*e6 doesn't look so playable in this computer age. Found a game where Speelman played 5 ...e5, but game nothing like as much fun as games in book.

My first thought is that your line, is interesting because lets black get in Qh4 earlier, before white is set with f3. However, this leads to my second thought.

White can stop the Qh4 monkey buisness, with 4.Nf3. Then black can play a Nimzo or dutch, where Nc6 is inferior.
Sorry not much details here, but only beginning to get into this mad stuff, more typically play something dry like the QGA.

Bye John S
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #8 - 03/21/06 at 12:47:31
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Dear Michael,

 Well I can't let you prompt me forever, so here it is, I'm a member now.
The funny thing is that I hadn't noticed there were several pages to each section 
(which explains the fact that I couldn't find anything on 1. d4 Ktc6 and also accounts for the fact that I started a new thread on the Eingorn French while it's covered in "French 3.h6" and "Winaver -h6"). I've been delving into threads from several years ago and I've got bucket loads of comments, so I hope no one will mind my resurecting these old discussions. Also you'll have to put up with seeing my name a lot!

I'm certainly not disputing the soundness of 1. e4 Ktc6. My point was simply that it is much less popular than the French. The "pure" Nimzo Defence 2. d4 d5 is particularly rare. Also theory considers these defences to be minor, but as you will have gathered, this is certainly no deterant for me!

 By the way, 2. Ktf3 can also be rather an annoying transpositional tool after 1. d4 Ktc6 (quite apart from the problems Black faces after 2. d5). The position resulting from 2. ...d5 ; 3. Bf4 (3. c4 is an uncritical line of the Chigorin) was discussed by Glenn Snow in one of the old threads "What to do against 2. Ktf3". Perhaps tiny White edge, boring play for Black is still the right assessment.

                                                           Regards,
                                                                 UD
« Last Edit: 03/21/06 at 16:57:31 by Uberdecker »  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #7 - 03/21/06 at 00:14:52
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Hi Hubert!

I’m extremely interested in your defence, and also in the Eingorn French. The only real reason I haven’t responded before is pressure of work. In my few spare moments I’ve been looking at (and been fascinated by) the Deferred Cozio Ruy Lopez, and haven’t, unfortunately, had time for any other researches. I guess, then, that I’m living proof of the soundness of the theory that sometimes one has to wait before interest is shown in a given post. Moral, don’t give up too soon!

As you’ll gather, I’m afraid I haven’t really got anything to contribute at this stage. But I can tell you where to find the stuff on 1 d4 Nc6. Have a look at the threads ‘X***THE QUEEN'S KNIGHT DEFENSE***’ and, later, ‘Is 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5!? Ne5 definitely considered +- ?’ and ‘1. d4 Nc6 2. d5 Ne5 – theory’, all in the Daring Defences forum. At the end of the first of these threads I suggest a line that might be good for White. Is this (still) correct? If you can suggest any improvements for Black I’d love to know!

I’m interested too in your comment on the theoretical soundness of 1 e4 Nc6 2 d4 e5. Tony Miles was famously of the opinion that this defence was OK for Black, the ‘problem’ being 2 Nf3 after which Black had better play 2 …e5. Do you disagree with him, and if so how should White play against the Kevitz-Mikenas Defence?

PS.  I too v. much hope you might register!
  
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Uberdeker(Guest)
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #6 - 03/20/06 at 23:29:25
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Dear Glenn,

I'm glad you at least are taking an active interest in my creation!
Your hypothesis that people don't want to play the French is a reasonable one, but we should point out that it enjoys a better theoretical status than 1. e4 Ktc6 ; 2. d4 d5 or 2. ...e5.
I forgot to state this in my initial post, but I think it's worth mentioning that players of the Two Knights' Indian must also face the Trompovsky, an opening in its own right, which has already built up quite a bit of theory, so even if you don't play the French against 1.e4 (this includes me), 1. d4 e6 won't stretch your repertoire too much if you don't want it to (Nimzo and even M. Benoni players should also give this a thought). And as I've already said, avoiding the KIA is no small accomplishment. 
If it's of any interest to you, I play the MacCutcheon and Eingorn Variations (you can check out my thread in the French Section). 
By the way, I'm intrigued by those posts on 1. d4 Ktc6. Where can I find them?
I'll think about registering if I get more feedback here!

                                                                   Regards,
                                                                        Hubert
  
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