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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4 (Read 54337 times)
Strptzr
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #22 - 03/28/06 at 18:47:17
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1. Nc3, c5 2. Nf3, Nf6 is a good flexible move ! 
I do hope Uberdeker has convinced all of you.
Oh, and never worry 'bout those statistics (15+ 7= 25- on NIC), they must be the results of surprise. No, naturally not due to that separate line Keilhack offers (3. e4, d6 5. e5),  forcing Black into the far superior Nimzowitsch Sicilian...   
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #21 - 03/28/06 at 14:37:27
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Thanks TalJechin,

  Just edited it
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #20 - 03/28/06 at 13:59:11
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Quote:
P.S. 2 TalJechin - What is the HD?


NiC code for the Dutch, supposedly it stands for Holländisch/Dutch.

By the way, with all the quoting of quotes, how come no one has wondered how Qd4 can go to h5 in the next move? Teleportation?  Wink
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #19 - 03/28/06 at 13:20:14
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Thank you, Castlerock, that was most amusing!

MNb, CraigEvans and TalJechin - looking forward to your replies,
 
                                                           Regards,
                                                             Hubert
  
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castlerock
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #18 - 03/28/06 at 12:47:50
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“This is a bit peculiar, as 1.Nc3 c5 2.Nf3 followed by 3.d4 is one of the best variations White can get. By postponing e2-e4 and looking for tricks based on Bf4/Nb5 or Nd5 White avoids the Najdorf and the Svesjnikov”.  –MNb

My understanding is MNb is championing white’s cause. -castlerock

“First a question : Since 1. Ktc3 c5 ; 2. Ktf3 ... ; 3. d4 is so hot, why not simply play 1. Ktf3 c5 ; 2. d4 ? After all, it's not as if 1. Ktc3 has prevented anything!” – uberdeker

I thought, UD is asking why can’t you play 2.d4 instead of 3.d4. If 3.d4 is hot, 2.d4 is hotter. - castlerock

“The other independant line is 2. d4 cd ; 3. Qxd4 Ktc6 ; 4. Qh5 but this should cause no fear or even discomfort for any type of Sicilian player (he can even prevent the whole thing with 3. ...e6)” – uberdeker

Before writing, I would have assumed that MNb preferred 3.d4 just to avoid this. – castlerock.

Do I sense some inconsistency here? Or is it that my understanding is bad? - Catlerock
 
I'd guess at the second. – Uberdeker

I agree and I quit! - Castlerock
  

CastleRock
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Uberdecker
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #17 - 03/28/06 at 12:28:14
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[quote author=castlerock link=1143213361/15#16 date=1143547914][quote author=Uberdeker link=1143213361/15#15 date=1143546509]
First a question : Since 1. Ktc3 c5 ; 2. Ktf3 ... ; 3. d4 is so hot, why not simply play 1. Ktf3 c5 ; 2. d4 ? After all, it's not as if 1. Ktc3 has prevented anything!

The other independant line is 2. d4 cd ; 3. Qxd4 Ktc6 ; 4. Qh5 but this should cause no fear or even discomfort for any type of Sicilian player (he can even prevent the whole thing with 3. ...e6)[/quote]

Do I sense some inconsistency here? Or is it that my understanding is bad?
[/quote]

I'd guess at the second. What is your point?

P.S. 1 Craig - If you consider 1. d4 c5 ; 2. d5 to be good for White (I agree completely) than I suggest you play it! The same comment goes for 1. d4 Ktc6 d5. By the way, 1. d4 Ktc6 ; 
2. c4 e6 (2. ...e5 is also possible through this move-order) 3. a3 f5 is quite satisfactory for Black

P.S. 2 TalJechin - What is the HD?
  
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castlerock
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #16 - 03/28/06 at 12:11:54
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1143213361/15#15 date=1143546509]
First a question : Since 1. Ktc3 c5 ; 2. Ktf3 ... ; 3. d4 is so hot, why not simply play 1. Ktf3 c5 ; 2. d4 ? After all, it's not as if 1. Ktc3 has prevented anything!

The other independant line is 2. d4 cd ; 3. Qxd4 Ktc6 ; 4. Qh5 but this should cause no fear or even discomfort for any type of Sicilian player (he can even prevent the whole thing with 3. ...e6)[/quote]

Do I sense some inconsistency here? Or is it that my understanding is bad?
  

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Uberdecker
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #15 - 03/28/06 at 11:48:29
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[quote author=MNb link=1143213361/0#6 date=1143323006]"I actually did look at 1.Nc3 but after 1...c5, I couldn't find any promising way to play the positions without transposing to a sicilian."
This is a bit peculiar, as 1.Nc3 c5 2.Nf3 followed by 3.d4 is one of the best variations White can get. By postponing e2-e4 and looking for tricks based on Bf4/Nb5 or Nd5 White avoids the Najdorf and the Svesjnikov.

A few samples, directly from Van Geet himself (Schaaknieuws-2, january 2003):
1.Nc3 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4
4...g6 5.Bf4! Bg7 (d6 and Nf6 are better) 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5!
4...d6 5.g3 g6?! 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.Qd4 followed by Ne4 and Bg5.
4...e6 5.Ndb5 (or 5.Bf4) d6 6.Bf4 e5 7.Nd5!
1.Nc3 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 Nf6 5.Ne4 Bg7 6.Bg5 Van Geet-Faase, Haarlem 1966.
This is not really standard Open Sicilian stuff.[/quote]

Dear MNb,

We've already started this discussion in "1. Nc3" in the Flank Openings Section, but since you're giving the variations here, so will I.

First a question : Since 1. Ktc3 c5 ; 2. Ktf3 ... ; 3. d4 is so hot, why not simply play 1. Ktf3 c5 ; 2. d4 ? After all, it's not as if 1. Ktc3 has prevented anything!

After 1. Ktc3 c5 ; 2. Ktf3, 2...Ktf6 is a good flexible move. Now 3. g3 d5 and your QKnight has commited itself to -c3 a bit too early and 3. e4 is a sideline of the Nimzo-Sicilian where Black has the option of transposing (among others) to the Najdorf and Sveshnikov (2. ...d6 ; 3. d4 and 2. ...Ktc6 ; 3. d4 respectively) that you wish to avoid.
So I will concentrate on 3. d4 cd ; 4. Ktxd4. Now Black has a pleasant choice :
- 4. ...e5 Kdb5 ; 5. d6 is a Sveshnikov without the moves e4 and ...Ktc6. This only favours Black who can defer the development of his QKnight or post it on -d7 for better control of -d5, whereas I don't see how White can do without playing e4.
- 4. ...d5 ; 5. Bf4 (5. g3 e5 is a Reversed Grünfeld where White has both failed to exchange Knights on -c6 and has blocked his -c pawn counterplay. These two factors should outweigh the "extra tempo") Ktbd7 ; 6. Ktf3 e6 is very comfy for Black. 
- 4. ...a6 ; 5. g3 (5. Bf4 d6) e5 is also viable

The other independant line is 2. d4 cd ; 3. Qxd4 Ktc6 ; 4. Qh4 but this should cause no fear or even discomfort for any type of Sicilian player (he can even prevent the whole thing with 3. ...e6)

I've only given lines in which Black plays ambitiously, trying to exploit White's unusual opening. But of course, Black may also play according to the set-up of his prefered Open Sicilian (Kan, Dragon, Scheveningen, etc) paying attention to his move-order so as not to fall for Bf4/Ktb5/Ktd5 traps. 

Please note that I'm not saying that 1. Ktc3 is actually a bad move. Just that there's no real point to it. White is hoping to obtain certain lines (1. ...d5 ; 2. e4 d4 springs to mind) but Black has no objective reason to oblige. 

                                                                 Regards,
                                                                    UD
« Last Edit: 03/28/06 at 14:36:58 by Uberdecker »  
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Willempie
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #14 - 03/28/06 at 08:25:59
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lnn2 wrote on 03/28/06 at 01:46:21:

@Willempie: the problem with the Petroff is the lack of pawn play in critical lines, so White is relying on piece play, which demands great accuracy to gain advantage. therefore more of a need for White to know exact theory.  But agree it is not possible to attack in every line, in  QG/Slavs and Samisch KID/Benoni for example, usually am more concerned about suffocating Black than attacking his king. I think 1. e4 is a much better move if White is hell-bent on the king on g8!

That is not my experience with the Petrov. Black usually has to play very careful to keep the balance as he has to in the Berlin too. There's a good reason grandmaster play those openings but many club players dont.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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MNb
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #13 - 03/28/06 at 02:04:05
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@Inn2

MNb - Koltanowski [E25]
em chess-mail.com, 2004

1.d4 e6 2.c4 Pf6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.f3 d5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 c5 7.cxd5 Nxd5 8.dxc5 Qa5 9.e4 Nc7 10.Qd4 f6 11.Be3 Nc6 12.Qc4 0-0 13.f4 Kh8 14.Nf3 e5 15.f5 Nb5 16.Ra2 Qxc3+ 17.Ld2 Qxc4 18.Bxc4 Ncd4 19.Nxd4 Nxd4 20.Bc3 0-1
I lost on time - in email chess I really need averagely 6 days a move  Lips Sealed. I think I was somewhat better at move 20, but I found the whole variation rather uninspiring. This is the kind of playing for a minute endgame edge I find uninteresting. First I was busy keeping my weak extra pawn as long as possible and when I had to return it, I made my opponent pay a price. There was no shade of attacking chances.
Nah, in OTB-chess I would rather prefer 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nxf7!? even though it is objectively not best.

  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #12 - 03/28/06 at 01:46:21
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MNb wrote on 03/27/06 at 02:45:06:
Comparing all the dxc4 lines in the QG with the Petroff of course is very much in favour of the first. But the fair comparison is NID/MNb2 with Petroff. For instance, in some off Inn2's formerly recommended 4.f3 lines drawing rates are even higher than after 2...Nf6 .... Sad Desparation even grows bigger. Of course 4.Qc2 is good, but then Black is the attacking player. So tell me how to attack the NID (don't tell me how to play for a minute edgame edge; not interested) and I am converted.


which drawing line bothers you after nimzo 4. f3 ? 
There is plenty of interesting play after 4... c5 and 4... d5 / 8. dxc5 main line. 4. f3 0-0! looks trickier though.. perhaps you might say 4. f3 is better suited for OTB than correspondence chess since White seems to get easy play OTB, but computers often misevaluate 4. f3 positions, so i think 4. f3 is also good for correspondence chess.

it sure looks like the stock of 1. d4 is rising since the stars of Topalov, Aronian, Radjabov, and to a lesser extent, Jobava are shining now..

@Willempie: the problem with the Petroff is the lack of pawn play in critical lines, so White is relying on piece play, which demands great accuracy to gain advantage. therefore more of a need for White to know exact theory.  But agree it is not possible to attack in every line, in  QG/Slavs and Samisch KID/Benoni for example, usually am more concerned about suffocating Black than attacking his king. I think 1. e4 is a much better move if White is hell-bent on the king on g8!
  
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Willempie
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #11 - 03/27/06 at 10:20:43
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lnn2 wrote on 03/26/06 at 11:51:00:

agree with JEH that you should look at the queen's gambit first, and compare the White side of QG with the White side of Ruy/Petroff. imho an attacking player should rejoice at the various dxc4 lines of the QG/Slav, and despair at the Petroff!  

Why? I dont really see the problem with the Petrov. Also even if you have an "attacking" repertoire, I dont think you can "attack" in every line.

On the Veresov. I am not sure if it would suit you, since it is not that agressive.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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TalJechin
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #10 - 03/27/06 at 10:02:08
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Well, the Petroff isn't a problem imo, Smiley - If white insists on a mirrored Veresov then the Petroff is his well deserved punishment! Wink 

Many years ago I made the opposite switch to Craig, i.e. from d4 to e4. Mainly because after 1.d4 I didn't see much advantage against the Grünfeld, Nimzo & Queen's Indian - with the KID/Modern Benoni and QG-Slav as close runners up, though there's at least some play. While after 1.e4 it's mainly the Sicilian that annoys, still - here there are still some interesting theory-dodging lines and fun positions in the Open too, though keeping up with the pace of theory there is not my cup of coffee...
  
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MNb
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #9 - 03/27/06 at 02:45:06
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Comparing all the dxc4 lines in the QG with the Petroff of course is very much in favour of the first. But the fair comparison is NID/QID with Petroff. For instance, in some off Inn2's formerly recommended 4.f3 lines drawing rates are even higher than after 2...Nf6 .... Sad Desparation even grows bigger. Of course 4.Qc2 is good, but then Black is the attacking player. So tell me how to attack the NID (don't tell me how to play for a minute edgame edge; not interested) and I am converted.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #8 - 03/26/06 at 11:51:00
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I am a 1. d4/2. c4 player, and considered the Veresov too (mainly because at the time I hated to face the Slav and Nimzo), but lost interest quickly since Black is in many places equal, and also you can't avoid transposition into the French or Caro-Kann if you want an advantage. 
agree with JEH that you should look at the queen's gambit first, and compare the White side of QG with the White side of Ruy/Petroff. imho an attacking player should rejoice at the various dxc4 lines of the QG/Slav, and despair at the Petroff!
  
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