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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4 (Read 54361 times)
TalJechin
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #7 - 03/26/06 at 06:54:11
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Quote:
  1.Nc3 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4
4...g6 5.Bf4! Bg7 (d6 and Nf6 are better) 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5!


If memory serves me right at this early hour, Keilhack considers Nd5 overrated in his Der Linksspringer tome, due to 7...Rb8 and spoiling black's castlingrights with a Nc7+ may be more trouble than it's worth.

But white's easy development and the chance to play e2-e4 as a lever make his position look fairly attractive, even if there might not be much of an objective advantage. 

Btw, Keilhack also mentions some other ideas, like Aasum's 1.Nc3 c5 2.f4 which should appeal to free spirits...  Wink


Anyway, on a slight side note. If one intends to go Veresov, wouldn't it be a good idea to check out the other annoying systems too e.g: London with 2.Bf4 c5 3.e4!?, The Trompowsky, the Barry Attack, Hodgson Attack and the Torre Attack - they seem to share so many ideas that it's a bit strange that they are considered different systems. - So, for little extra effort you could increase your opponent's prep time considerably... And if you'd ever consider playing 1.d4 d5 as black in the future, this would certainly be time well spent...

Btw, I'm not familiar with the chess scene in Wales, but I'd assume that Hodgson and Hebden etc have made these QP deviations quite popular on the British Isles - so taking up the Veresov now might be like arriving late to a party - the best booze may be gone...  Wink
  
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MNb
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #6 - 03/25/06 at 21:43:26
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"I actually did look at 1.Nc3 but after 1...c5, I couldn't find any promising way to play the positions without transposing to a sicilian."
This is a bit peculiar, as 1.Nc3 c5 2.Nf3 followed by 3.d4 is one of the best variations White can get. By postponing e2-e4 and looking for tricks based on Bf4/Nb5 or Nd5 White avoids the Najdorf and the Svesjnikov.
As you won't give up 1.e4 anyway but want to expand your repertoire with the Veresov, 1.Nc3 is worth considering indeed. The most important replies 1...d5 and 1...Nf6 can be answered with 2.d4 then.

A few samples, directly from Van Geet himself (Schaaknieuws-2, january 2003):
1.Nc3 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4
4...g6 5.Bf4! Bg7 (d6 and Nf6 are better) 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5!
4...d6 5.g3 g6?! 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.Qd4 followed by Ne4 and Bg5.
4...e6 5.Ndb5 (or 5.Bf4) d6 6.Bf4 e5 7.Nd5!
1.Nc3 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 Nf6 5.Ne4 Bg7 6.Bg5 Van Geet-Faase, Haarlem 1966.
This is not really standard Open Sicilian stuff.
  

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CraigEvans
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #5 - 03/25/06 at 12:39:18
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Thanks for the replies!

Alumbrado, I have considered 2.Nc3, and it could well figure in my repertoire (I've not looked at it in much depth but the general plan seems to be Bg5 and aiming for e4 - I could well have that as the "quiet" option against the Dutch. I quite like gambit play, however, and 2.Qd3 seems quite strong (especially in practical play), so I feel that I should at least continue to keep some gambits in my repertoire - I've got a reputation to maintain.  Wink

Scholar, 1...e6 is something that I'm a little annoyed about. The main problem seems to be 2.Nc3 c5 - that blasted c-pawn shoved forward by the sicilian players again! I have played the Winawer as white so I'm not completely lost here, and might even consider 3.Qd3!? (after 2.Nc3 d5) giving the position that distinctive Veresov flavour. Probably not objectively strong, but compared to some of my openings probably a lot sounder. Of course, 2.Nc3 f5 3.Qd3 intends the same gambit lines.  Grin

TalJechin, there are quite a few reasons - 
Firstly, in Wales there's quite a limited pool of players. At my level, several of them do prepare for opponents, and since it's usually quite easy to work out who you'll be playing on an evening, my narrow 1.e4 repertoire can be a hindrance. Eventually I do plan to learn 1.d4 + 2.c4, but I figured that it would be best to start off with a system which didn't require a total change of playing style. Then I can eventally incorporate the Benoni against 1...c5 and eventually move into a "proper" d4 repertoire. Also, having so many options as white can only be a good thing.
Avoiding theory is a key thing - between my job and my studies I barely have the time to get to matches, and this will continue for the next few years. I actually did look at 1.Nc3 but after 1...c5, I couldn't find any promising way to play the positions without transposing to a sicilian, which is exactly what I want to avoid. Also, the Veresov is a dangerous system and, to my knowledge, no-one in my league (or possibly any of the Welsh leagues) plays it, so between the surprise and the strength I figure I can score very well with it. Besides, as a Hector fan I feel I owe it to try anything he does. There's also the fact that I would love to play against the Dutch... Wink

I suppose I'm not really abandoning 1.e4, I will no doubt play that as well - certainly against lower-graded opponents, I have a huge plus score with it, but looking at my results against 1900+ players, I do not do at all well. Whereas I've played 1.d4 twice (one stonewall and one BDG, admittedly) with a 100% score against players in this range, and this was back when I was a lot lower-rated as well. Also, I know a lot of people who dislike playing black after 1.d4 (myself included) - isn't it coached that you should do what is least pleasant for your opponent?  Grin

I don't know, perhaps I just want to broaden my horizons, but don't believe that the Ruy Lopez is the best/only way to do so. I've always played wild gambits and systems where I'm thinking from the opening... above anything, I think I need to start conserving my energy for the middlegame, without getting there with a terrible position.

Apologies for the long babble, was just typing thoughts as they came into my head.  Cheesy

Cheers,
Craig
  

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JEH
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #4 - 03/25/06 at 12:22:54
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Before switching or deciding between 1 e4 or 1 d4, I think you need to study the Ruy Lopez and Queen's Gambit first, and decide which of those you prefer and then build the repetoire around that. I think it's worth doing that even if you don't intend to play them, as you might decide sometime in the future that you need to upgrade your repetoire and it's alway useful to have some idea about these timeless classics.

If you are going to something like the Veresov, I'd recommend keeping your 1. e4 repetoire too as it will make preparation against you more difficult.

If you aren't going to play at a level where players can prepare against you, then it doesn't really matter what you play  Wink
  

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TalJechin
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #3 - 03/25/06 at 09:53:56
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Well, you haven't stated why you want to change to 1.d4

- if it's just to avoid a lot of theory, then 1.Nc3 intending to go 2.d4 would cut your load even more. If you just want messy tactical positions then why abandon 1.e4 ? Surely there are ways to avoid too much theory here too?!

The point of 1.d4 (or 1.Nf3 & d4) is to usually reach calmer more positional systems - but considering your Veresov intentions that doesn't sound like the reason you want to change either... 

So the only reason I can think of is that you want to try strategical d4 chess, but is too lazy to learn the NI, GI, QI, KI, HD, etc etc, but without the main systems with d4+c4, 1.d4 and 1.e4 won't differ too much...
  
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #2 - 03/24/06 at 18:24:31
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I would also suggest just playing some games and then concentrate on the lines that seem to be giving you trouble.  I'd also warn you about 1...e6 -- you're likely to see this pretty frequently, maybe even more than c5 and f5.

This gives you the choice of learning to play against the french, or against the dutch.  Since you're coming from e4, playing the french may make a lot of sense.  (Learning the french with the idea of playing e4 in response to 1...e6 is on my list of things to do.)

It's pretty much inevitable that there will be some disappointing opening adventures as you start out, but my own experience in drastically changing my repertoire was that I learned better by playing and then focusing on the Black replies where I went astray.
  
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alumbrado
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Re: Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
Reply #1 - 03/24/06 at 16:12:14
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You will get a lot of Veresovs as you can play it after either 1...d5 or 1...Nf6 so concentrate on that.  Don't worry about 1...c5 - if you really don't like the idea of the various Benonis, 2.dxc5 is a decent option to get an Open Sicilian style structure without the theory (albeit without much chance for an opening advantage either!).  And as LDZ will tell you there is always 1.d4 c5 2.Nf3 cxd4 3.b4!?  Wink

Onto the Dutch - more complicated.  After 1...f5, 2.Nc3 seems to be the most natural 'fit' with a Veresov repertoire, but if you want to give 2.Qd3!? a punt then fine.  The problem comes with 1...e6 and to a lesser extent 1...d6.  However, if you're playing the Veresov, you've probably got to have a line against the French, Pirc and Modern anyway, haven't you?  So just transpose to that (and you're a 1.e4 player at the monent so you must have something in mind).

I'd get going straight away if you really want to make the switch.  Give it a whirl online and see how it goes.  Good luck!
  

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Switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4
03/24/06 at 15:16:00
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Plenty of advice has been given on websites, in books and on this forum about switching between openings, for example between the Caro-Kann and Sicilian. While not ideal, this is clearly manageable.

However, I have seen much less about switching entire opening complexes - especially from 1.e4 to 1.d4 (since in general, 1.Nf3 and 1.c4 can be more tailored to learning systems rather than opening theory, or at least I feel that the theory is less important), and since this is the situation I now find myself in, I felt it would be good to start a thread and seek advice on this.

As I've said elsewhere, the mainstay of my repertoire will be the Veresov, covering the 1...Nf6 and 1...d5 responses (except for 1...Nf6 followed by 2...d6/c5/various other weaker replies). Of course, this leaves the Dutch, 1...c5 and various setups (English Defence etc) to learn to, and of course these are completely different in nature to 1.e4 openings.

My original plan had been 2.e4 against 1...c5, but learning open sicilians renders half the concept of my switching to 1.d4 pointless. Therefore 2.dxc5 or 2.d5 are the ways to go I'm sure, but playing 2.d5 would mean that I would be creating extra work in learning the benoni complex (schmidt/modern), even though I believe these to be ultimately good for white. Therefore, 2.dxc5 is likely to be the way to go - are there any texts on this line? It seems to me that white should be able to prove some sort of edge with good play.

1...f5 is a different beast. 2.Qd3 is likely to be my choice, since I feel that the g4 pawn sacs are quite strong. But there's something to be said for the more positional crushes as well - there's just so many promising lines! (Only kidding, MNb  Wink ) There shouldn't be too much theory on 2.Qd3, and the only thing which worries me is that it was recommended in one of the SOS books, therefore probably bringing it to the attention of even the less booked-up players.

1...Nc6 2.e4 is the Nimzowitsch Defence, which I'm happy with. Although 2.c4 e6 3.a3 looks quite strong too (and, indeed, did for me the last time I played 1...Nc6). I'm not sure here either.

Then there's 1...b6/1...e6/1...d6/1...c6/1...b5 and the even sillier replies. In general, I'd back myself to be okay without knowing too much, most can be met by 2.e4/2.Nc3 following the same sort of plan.

The main question is, where do I start? Do I just play 1.d4 in my next game, learn the Veresov through playing it and if so, which of the other lines should I concentrate on first? Or, do I continue playing 1.e4 until the end of the season, then use the May-Sept break to learn these lines and test them in offhand games? (The problem with this being that there are a number of congresses in the summer with Monmouth/Stroud/Hereford/British Championship all being on my agenda)

Also, has anyone gone through this sort of major transformation before? If so, how were your results affected? Generally I score decently with white and I don't want to go on a season-long losing streak for no reason...

Cheers,
Craig
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

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