Latest Updates:
Normal Topic Modern Defence, 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 Nc6!? (Read 9536 times)
Alesab
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 36
Location: Rome, Italy
Joined: 11/17/06
Gender: Male
Re: Modern Defence, 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 Nc6!?
Reply #9 - 12/29/06 at 10:19:47
Post Tools
So 5. Be3 and 5. Bb5 look both quite good for black. 

What about the normal 5. Nf3 then ? Could it be the best white possibility now ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1976
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: Modern Defence, 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 Nc6!?
Reply #8 - 04/23/06 at 14:41:05
Post Tools
Yes, I still share your interest in/feelings about these lines, and only work and other pressures have stopped me getting more stuck in recently!

Interesting comments on 8 Re1 and 8 a4. I notice Nevednichy (a guy whose games I watch as he's a Tango player!) had a game which went 8 Re1 Bg4 9 h3 Bf3 10 Bf3 Nfd7!?.

Mestrovic -- yes, he's a lesson to us all in dedication! It's a bit off-topic, but I only realised recently that 1 e4 Nc6 2 d4 d6!? is an independent system and that M. specialises in it -- there are 71 games of his in this line on ChessLive! After 3 Nc3 he plays 3 ...Nf6 and transposes into the main [2 Nf3] line with 4 Nf3 Bg4 which I don't like, but of course there's 3 ...g6!?. Berdichevsky, in his book, gives a game he won against M. in 1991 which went 3 Be3!? Nf6 4 f3 e5 5 Bb5 Nd7!? 6 Ne2, but knowing M. the last word has probably not been spoken here! (B. gives 5 ...ed 6 Qd4 Bd7 7 Bc6 bc 8 Ne2 Be7 9 0-0 0-0 10 c4! as good for White, but of course there are other choices ...)

When I get time I'll try to start a new thread on the variety of different Pirc/Modern ideas after 1 e4 Nc6, and also on Mestrovic's intriguing interpretation of the Bogolyubov Defence, 1 d4 Nc6 2 d5 Ne5 3 e4 d6!?, which of course is the same as 1 e4 Nc6 2 d4 d6!? 3 d5 Ne5 (M. has also played 3 ...Nb8!? here, obviously!).


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Modern Defence, 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 Nc6!?
Reply #7 - 04/19/06 at 19:01:47
Post Tools
I've been doing a bit of database digging in this line, and it's starting to interest me more. I like to have a few variations up my sleeve in the slippery Pirc.

Firstly, I looked at 1 e4 Nc6 and the report gives it scoring above average for Black at 47%! However there's a severe lack of GMs using it at all currently. I think it would be only Tony Miles, if he was with us Today. Why that is, is a question for another thread. 

However one interesting name in the report was Zvonimar Mestrovic. What? You've never heard of him? Well he's a Slovenian IM who's been playing 1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 d6 and 1. e4 Nc6 2. Nf3 d6 since 1977 to present and has scored 87.5 / 139! So there's some reward in specialisation and enough games there to work out a repetoire.

As for the line in question, well White is only scoring 51% with 8 h3 and the main replies are c6 (62) and e5 (37), both scoring 49%. But there is also c5 (8) with 44% and Nbd7 (9) with 39%. You have to be careful with the statistics though as there aren't many games in my DB in this line (numbers are in brackets above). 

However I've got White scoring 66% in 67 games with 8 Re1, but again not a big sample. The GM chosen move is 8. ...Bg4. Logical to offload a minor piece with the space disadvantage, and Black scores an average 44% here. But c6 (with a6, cd, and b5), e5 (with an eventual d5 break after de) and even the little played Nbd7 all look like decent attempts to equalise. 

As for 8. a4, well even less games, and the usual tiny edge for White. Interesting is that it was Tony Miles choice as White against Quinteros in 1986 (Miles won). Plan for Black seems to be 8. ...a5 and then Nb8-Na6-b4, a thematic way to develop the QKnight against a4.

In conclusion, I don't see any major problems in these lines, well no more than you'd get in other defences, and I'd say this line is well worth a punt at any level  Cool

  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1976
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: Modern Defence, 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 Nc6!?
Reply #6 - 04/19/06 at 10:41:01
Post Tools
Thanks for another highly informative post! I was interested to learn that 8 h3 is considered the sternest test of Black’s play, rather than 8 Re1 (or even 8 a4). (Against 8 Re1, I notice, Black scores a miserable 32 per cent on ChessLab, but probably that’s not the whole story!)

I see what you mean about Black maybe equalising slowly after 8 h3 e5. I don’t know about their theoretical status, but temperamentally I fancy 8 …Nbd7 or 8 …c6 a lot more. I got interested in this whole line after buying Berdichevsky’s book on 1 …Nc6, in which he gives a number of B08 games under a 1 e4 Nc6 2 Nf3 d6 move order. The games he cites are, for 8 …Nbd7, D. Gurevich—Miles, and, for 8 …c6, Ligterink—Lutikov, Stean—Keene, Karpov—Korchnoi and Timoschenko—Razuvaev. His very brief Informator-style assessments lead me to doubt how comprehensive and up to date he is, but in all these games, at least, he arrives at an ‘equal’ assessment!

I liked the 12 …f5!? TN (in the 4 f4 Nc6 line above)! At first I thought White should be doing Black over with gxf6, Bd3, 0-0-0 and h4—h5, but I can see that with manoeuvres like …Qc8, …c4 and …Rb8 Black has strong and maybe sufficient counterplay. Looks like a quintessential ‘most inventive player will win’ position!
« Last Edit: 04/19/06 at 18:19:59 by Michael Ayton »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Modern Defence, 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 Nc6!?
Reply #5 - 04/17/06 at 16:15:20
Post Tools
The Carpathian Warrior only covers Austrain lines, nothing classical. The issue with the early commitment of Nc6 is that White has chances to kill the game off into positions with little winning chances, especially for Black. 

I used to think this was a problem, however I like the classical positions, play both sides of them, and score well with Black. Theoretically I don't see White getting more than the normal tiny plus thats obtained in other mainline openings, and middlegame experience will tell more in this line IMHO. 

As for 6. ...Nc6, I'll quote Gallagher in Starting Out Pirc/Modern "generally considered to be the least trustworthy of Blacks mainstream 6th move alternatives, but as we shall see it is better than its reputation".

He gives 6. ...Nc6 7. d5 Nb8 8. h3 as the line that puts some Black players off as Black has less space and a full set of minor pieces.The line runs 8. ...e5 9. de Bxe6 10 Bg5 h6 (important to play h6 before White stops it with Qd2) and "Black would be facing uncomfortable pressure."  Still there's chances to equalise and you might like this Philidor like position.

  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1976
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: Modern Defence, 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 Nc6!?
Reply #4 - 04/15/06 at 01:11:46
Post Tools
Thanks for some great food for thought, JEH! -- I shall take a look at some of these lines over the hols. At my level (I boldly claim 'decent club player' having just reached the final of my [Durham] club championship!), of course, a bit of preparation and familiarity here can be expected to reap rich dividends.

I'd be interested to know what you, and also [i]Carpathian Warrior[/i], think about the parallel idea of ...Nc6 in the Classical Pirc (which I might reach from a 1 ...Nc6 move order).  After 6 ...Nc6 7 d5 Nb8, Nunn in [i]NCO[/i] claims 8 h3, 8 a4 and 8 Re1 all confer a White edge. Again I'm sure these are complex positions where experience and understanding count for a lot more than theoretical status, but it'd be good to know what might be Black's strongest plans against White's best tries.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Modern Defence, 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 Nc6!?
Reply #3 - 04/12/06 at 18:32:57
Post Tools
Both Khalifmann (OfWatA) and the Ultimate Pirc give the 7. ...e5 line as a simplifying into a slightly better ending for White, which is sometimes a satisfactory evaluation for both players (eg the Berlin wall), ie Black might be able to defend it for a draw, but that's not for everyone. So both give 7. ...e6 as the mainline plan which is interesting as it doesn't crop up as a the mainline plan elsewhere. Draw your own conclusion from that. 

Playing battle of the books, Khalifmann follows the Ultimate Pirc lines and takes them at bit further (some were just assessed as unclear) concluding a slight advantage for white, however there is vast scope for improvments to be found for both sides. Quite virgin territory which has a big appeal. 

Here's a TN for you on Khalifmanns book 1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 d6 4. f4 Nc6 5. Be3 Nf6 6. Nf3 0-0 7. Be2 e6 8. h3 b6 9. g4 (is Black getting worried yet  Undecided) Bb7 10 g5 Nh5 11 Rg1 Ne7 12. Qd2 f5!? which is a thematic retort to Whites f4-f5 plan, and now you're both on your own  Wink

Here's an excerpt from Khalifmann's conclusion "The defensive system for Black that we have analysed in this chapter is very dynamic and requires from White energetic play right from the start" That's a pretty good endorsement!
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1976
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: Modern Defence, 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 Nc6!?
Reply #2 - 04/12/06 at 11:06:46
Post Tools
Interesting post -- thanks v much! Re the ...e5 line, I notice NCO gives, after 4 f4 Nc6 5 Be3 Nf6 6 Nf3 0-0 7 Be2 e5!?, 8 de as leading to a White edge after 8 ...de (8 ...Ng4 9 Bc1 de 10 h3 Qd1 11 Bd1 Nf6 12 fe) 9 Qd8 Rd8 10 fe Ng4 11 Bg5 Rd7 12 Nd5. Can Black improve?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Modern Defence, 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 Nc6!?
Reply #1 - 04/11/06 at 20:52:43
Post Tools
From a quick DB survey, this move order has been popular with GMs for many years, and is still used. It scores averagely for black. I have no experience with playing it myself, but I looked at it a while ago because of some of the Pirc champs that have used it (Azmaiparashvilli, Benjamin, McNab, Nijboer, Keene and Davies is a pretty repectable list).

In the mainline Austrian with 6 Bd3 Nc6 (which has been growing on me lately), White usually ends up moving the Bd3 somewhere else (Be2 in the mainline anaylsis) suggesting that it isn't on the right square. With the Modern move order, if Black plays Nf6, White might be able to deploy this Bishop to a better one to get a favourable transposition (1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 d6 4. f4 Nc6 5. Be3 Nf6 6. 0-0 7. Be2) or play Bb5 as suggested, but that looks ok for Black too, in a Lopezzy kind of way.

Interesting that in the Ultimate Pirc, the recommendation is a Hippoesque setup with e6, Ne7, b6, Bb7, although the e5 line looks ok.

So yes, it's a respectable line for Black and handy to have up your sleeve, especially if you are happy with the Nc6 Pirc against the Austrian. White needs to have something against it and there's plenty of games to study.

« Last Edit: 04/11/06 at 22:06:19 by JEH »  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1976
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Modern Defence, 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 Nc6!?
04/10/06 at 22:35:43
Post Tools
I was browsing through [i]Carpathian Warrior [/i] yesterday at the Durham Congress bookstall, and my eye fell on the page discussing 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 Nc6!? in the Modern. I'd always thought this was inferior because of 5 Bb5!? a6 6 Bc6 bc 7 Nf3 Bg4 8 0-0 then h2--h3, but the authors give instead just 7 ...Nf6 8 0-0 0-0, which for some strange reason I'd never looked at. Although they say they quite like White, the lines they gave seemed mainly quite reasonable for Black.

I'd be interested to know if anyone has views on/experience of this line, and similarly with 4 ...Nc6 5 Be3!? which on the basis of the CW material seems to merit a similar assessment. (NCO gives Chandler--Nijboer, with an '=' assessment.) Of course 4 f4 is a very dangerous weapon, but could it be 4 ...Nc6 is as reasonable a defence as any?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo