FightingDragon wrote on 05/04/06 at 14:44:58:


I think that 9...d5 is Black's most solid reply, and I don't think that he is struggling there at all -- against the other replies, it seems that Black is looking for new solutions.

Ametanoitos wrote on 05/04/06 at 16:32:35:


This would be my main experience with the line, actually, and I find it interesting that you have turned to 8...Bd7.  As a reluctant convert to d5, it is sad to see my fear realized, but I have decided that, generally, the dragon is a poor choice when Black needs to win, and so I no longer worry about drawing lines.

Although I don't want to distract too much from discussion of the critical lines after 12...e5, I find these not so attractive for Black: they appear to increase risk without increasing winning chances.  For those who agree, I suggest 12...Bxd4, which has the advantage that one can learn (and improve upon) the theory in a single afternoon (and so it is a worthwhile second line for anyone).

I even think that 24 __ c5 is playable, but rather drawish

But after 24 __ Qb5 what happens in the following variations 

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 15. h4 h6 16. g4 Qc7 17. g5 h5 18. Bc4 Red8 19.
Qf2 Qb7 20. Rhe1 Nf4 21. Bxe6 Nxe6 22. Bd6 Rd7 23. Rd2 Rad8 24. Red1 Qb5 25. b3
(25. c3 {is Fritz move} a5 26. Qe3 a4 27. Qd3 f5 (27... Qb7 28. Qc4 a3 29. b3 {
and Fritz likes whites position}) 28. gxf6 Bh6 29. c4 Bxd2+ 30. Rxd2 Qa6 {
and Fritz likes whites position} (30... Qb4 31. c5 Kf7 {
and Fritz likes white position})) 25... Nd4 26. c3 Nf5 27. Kb2 Nxd6 28. Rxd6 {
instead of Nxd6} (28. Nxd6 Qb6 29. Qe2 Qc7 30. Ne4 Rd5 31. Qe3 Qd7 32. Qc5 Qb7
33. c4 Rxd2+ 34. Rxd2 Rxd2+ 35. Nxd2 e4+ 36. Kc2 exf3 37. Nxf3 Qd7 {
looks good for black}) 28... Rxd6 29. Rxd6 Rxd6 30. Nxd6 Qd3 31. Ne4 a5 32. a4
Qd1 33. Qe3 Bf8 {and Fritz likes whites position} *

9...d5! is without doubt the strongest move after 9.O-O-O. The problem i have is that there are a lot of forced lines which end in a draw etc after the pawn grab, or the queen sac after 10.Kb1 (although i have analysed a couple of great new ideas after 12..exf6!). 
  My preference for now is 8..Bd7, but the games given in Martin's book are not critical, so if anyone wants to play this has to study hard and come up with one or two original ideas in some critical positions. The good thing about this is that the positions arising are not so sharp (as in the 9...Bd7 system in which Golubev's 18.Bh6!! still socks me , FightingDragon you  know what i mean....), and live room for creativity which is good if you have to win against a low-rated player or in a corr game. If you want objectivity, i bet for 9..d5.
  So, let's go for the critical line after 9.0-0-0 d5 10.ed5: Nd5: 11.Nc6: bc6: 12.Bd4! e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.Ne4. There is no problem with 14..Re8, as i see it,regarding you have read Dearing's book and after 15.h4 h6 16.g4 Qc7 17.g5 h5 18.Bc4 Red8 19.Qf2 Qb7 20.Rhe1 Nf4 21.Bxe6 Nxe6 and now Dearing's 22.Nf6+ is not so good as is 22.Bd6! (Golubev) Rd7 23.Rd2 Rad8 24.Red1 and now 24..Qb6? transposes to Psakhis-Komljenovic which is losing for black after Qxb6 and Be7 but black can play 24..Qb5! (be carefull at this point.Computers don't help for analysing this position.For example the above losing line given by Psakhis do not see it!) whith the idea to prevent a4 as answer to a5 and threaten ..Nd4 with Rxd6 as now Nc5 doesn't hit anything! So white plays (analysis from me...) 25.b3 Nd4 26.c3!? Nf5 24.Kb2 Nxd6!? 25.Nxd6 Qb6! (now this tade is welcome!) 26.Qe2 Qc7 27.Nc4 Rd5 = with the plan Qd7-e6 or f5-Kh7 and finally f6! gxf6 Bxf6 targeting the h4 pawn. 

Any thoughts?

ok lets play a game, a gotta see about 20 patients u gotta set up fritz8-9 after c3 when i get home we will compare my notes to yours and lets see how black looks, the old miles, timmin analysis that was published was faulty so lets do this exercise it will do 2 things, 1. save me a point when im  wrong or 2, have people stop using fritz to beat up on position where it does not understand the implication of b3 exchange sacs. be home in about 6 hours but happy to do this given the beating im getting.