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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out book (Read 22891 times)
kylemeister
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #11 - 05/12/06 at 06:10:45
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Yeah, 2. d3 could contain the idea of going into either the KIA, the Closed Sicilian or the "Big Clamp" (which I associate with the Canadian IM Lawrence Day).  Here's a (non-Day) game with the Clamp:

[Event "Baguio City Wch-m"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1978.??.??"]
[Round "11"]
[White "Kortchnoi, Viktor"]
[Black "Karpov, Anatoly Evgenievich"]
[Result "1-0"]
[NIC "SI 44.2.7"]
[ECO "A00"]
[PlyCount "100"]

1. g3 c5 2. Bg2 Nc6 3. e4 g6 4. d3 Bg7 5. f4 d6 6. Nf3 Nf6 7. O-O O-O 8. c3 Rb8 9.
Qe2 Ne8 10. Be3 Nc7 11. d4 cxd4 12. cxd4 Bg4 13. Rd1 d5 14. e5 Qd7 15. Nc3 Rfc8 16.
Qf1 b5 17. h3 Bxf3 18. Bxf3 b4 19. Bg4 e6 20. Na4 Na5 21. Nc5 Qe8 22. Be2 Nb7 23.
Nxb7 Rxb7 24. Rdc1 Qd7 25. Rc2 b3 26. axb3 Rxb3 27. Qc1 Rb7 28. Ba6 Rcb8 29. Bxb7
Rxb7 30. Ra3 h6 31. Rac3 Nb5 32. Rc8  Kh7 33. R2c6 f6 34. Kg2 Qf7 35. Qc2 a5 36.
g4 fxe5 37. fxe5 a4 38. Ra8 Na7 39. Ra6 Qe7 40. Rxa4 Rc7 41. Qb3 Nc6 42. Ra1 Nb4
43. Rc1 Rc4 44. Rb8 Rxc1 45. Bxc1 Qc7 46. Rxb4 Qxc1 47. Qd3 h5 48. Rb6 Bh6 49. gxh5
Qg5  50. Qg3 Qd2  1-0

For Black I might suggest playing for the so-called Botvinnik setup regardless of what White is doing.  But look out for this kind of thing ...

[Event "Bucuresti"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1968.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Bilek, Istvan"]
[Black "Gheorghiu, Florin"]
[Result "1-0"]
[NIC "SI 45.10.8"]
[ECO "B25"]
[PlyCount "37"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 g6 4. Bg2 Bg7 5. d3 d6 6. f4 e5 7. Nh3 Nge7 8. O-O O-O 9.
f5 gxf5 10. exf5 Bxf5 11. Rxf5 Nxf5 12. Be4 Nfd4 13. Qh5 Re8 14. Qxh7  Kf8 15. Bg5
Qd7 16. Nd5 Re6 17. Rf1 Nxc2 18. Bg6 N2d4 19. Bh6 1-0

For Black I would suggest 8...ef instead.  You can improve on this game ...

[Event "Geneva m"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1977.??.??"]
[Round "13"]
[White "Spassky, Boris Vasilievich"]
[Black "Portisch, Lajos"]
[Result "1-0"]
[NIC "SI 45.10.6"]
[ECO "B25"]
[PlyCount "79"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 g6 4. Bg2 Bg7 5. d3 d6 6. f4 e5 7. Nh3 exf4 8. Bxf4 Nge7
9. O-O h6 10. Rb1 O-O 11. a3 Be6 12. Be3 Ne5 13. Nf4 Bd7 14. Kh1 Rc8 15. Qd2 Kh7
16. h3 Bc6 17. g4 Qd7 18. Rf2 b6 19. Rbf1 Bb7 20. Qe2 Rce8 21. Bc1 Kg8 22. Qe3 b5
23. Qg3 b4 24. axb4 cxb4 25. Nd1 d5 26. d4 N5c6 27. exd5 Nxd4 28. c4 bxc3 29. bxc3
Nb3 30. Ba3 Rc8 31. c4 Na5 32. Re2 Rfe8 33. Rfe1 Bf8 34. Nh5 Nxd5 35. cxd5 gxh5 36.
gxh5  Bg7 37. Bb2 f6 38. Bxf6 Rxe2 39. Rxe2 Qf7 40. Re6 1-0

The pure reversed King's Indian case makes me think of this game ...

[Event "Nice olympiad final"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1974.06.26"]
[Round "11"]
[White "Planinc, Albin"]
[Black "Rubinetti, Jorge Alberto"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2545"]
[BlackElo "2415"]
[NIC "RE 24.5"]
[ECO "A08"]
[PlyCount "57"]

1. g3 c5 2. Bg2 d5 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. O-O e5 5. d3 Nf6 6. Nbd2 Be7 7. e4 O-O 8. c3 Re8
9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Re1 Bf8 11. Nc4 Qc7 12. Ng5 Rd8 13. Qe2 Nb6 14. Qe4 g6 15. Qh4 h5
16. Ne4 Nd5 17. Bg5 Bf5 18. Nf6  Nxf6 19. Bxf6 Rxd3 20. Bf1 Rd7 21. Nxe5 Nxe5 22.
Rxe5 Bg4 23. h3 Bf3 24. Bb5 Rd6 25. Rae1 Rxf6 26. Qxf6 Bg7 27. Re8  Rxe8 28. Rxe8 
Kh7 29. Qxf3 1-0

In the case of the KIA vs. French so-called "long variation" I would think of a couple of games such as this ...

[Event "Sousse izt"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1967.??.??"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Fischer, Robert James"]
[Black "Myagmarsuren, Lhamsuren"]
[Result "1-0"]
[NIC "RE 24.14"]
[ECO "C00"]
[PlyCount "61"]

1. e4 e6 2. d3 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. g3 c5 5. Bg2 Nc6 6. Ngf3 Be7 7. O-O O-O 8. e5 Nd7
9. Re1 b5 10. Nf1 b4 11. h4 a5 12. Bf4 a4 13. a3 bxa3 14. bxa3 Na5 15. Ne3 Ba6 16.
Bh3 d4 17. Nf1 Nb6 18. Ng5 Nd5 19. Bd2 Bxg5 20. Bxg5 Qd7 21. Qh5 Rfc8 22. Nd2 Nc3
23. Bf6 Qe8 24. Ne4 g6 25. Qg5 Nxe4 26. Rxe4 c4 27. h5 cxd3 28. Rh4 Ra7 29. Bg2 dxc2
30. Qh6 Qf8 31. Qxh7  1-0

and this ...

[Event "Sofia"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1967.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Gheorghiu, Florin"]
[Black "Uhlmann, Wolfgang"]
[Result "1-0"]
[NIC "RE 24.14"]
[ECO "A08"]
[PlyCount "52"]

1. e4 e6 2. d3 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. Ngf3 Be7 5. g3 c5 6. Bg2 Nc6 7. O-O O-O 8. Re1 b5
9. e5 Nd7 10. Nf1 a5 11. h4 b4 12. Bf4 a4 13. a3 bxa3 14. bxa3 Ba6 15. Ne3 Nd4 16.
c4 Nb3 17. cxd5 Nxa1 18. Qxa1 exd5 19. Nxd5 Bxd3 20. e6 Nf6 21. Nxe7  Qxe7 22. Ne5
Bg6 23. Nc6 Qb7 24. Bd6 Be4 25. Rxe4 Qxc6 26. Bxf8 Rxf8 1-0


I'm just saying, I think these are a few games White could take into consideration if he is thinking of playing 2. d3.   
  
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MNb
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #10 - 05/12/06 at 02:07:44
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Then what do you guys think of my earlier suggestion 2.d3 ? To refresh your memory: the idea is to answer an early d7-d5 with Nb1-d2, transposing to the King's Indian Attack. After 1.e4 c5 2.d3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.f4 White will only transpose to the Closed Sicilian, when it suits him.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Keano
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #9 - 05/11/06 at 15:53:51
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Dont play it is the answer! Closed Sicilian hardly challenging these days, if you are looking for an ant-Sicilian go for the c3 line (not to my taste) or the Bb5 lines which leave a bit more to the imagination
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #8 - 05/11/06 at 04:33:17
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Interesting stuff, MNb.  In glancing at the Gulko game, my first thought was that 10...Nc6 looked better.  Looking through some books, I see that in fact Gulko recommended that as equalising.      


Incidentally, I recall this as an important game which helped establish the good reputation of 2...e6 ...

[Event "Kiev m"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1968.??.??"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Spassky, Boris Vasilievich"]
[Black "Kortchnoi, Viktor"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[NIC "SI 44.5.8"]
[ECO "B23"]
[PlyCount "101"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 e6 3. g3 d5 4. exd5 exd5 5. Bg2 Nf6 6. Nge2 d4 7. Ne4 Nxe4 8. Bxe4
Nd7 9. d3 Nf6 10. Bg2 Bd6 11. O-O O-O 12. Bf4 Bg4 13. Bxd6 Qxd6 14. h3 Bd7 15. Nf4
Rfe8 16. Qd2 Bc6 17. Rae1 Nd7 18. Bxc6 Qxc6 19. Ng2 h6 20. f4 Nf6 21. a3 b6 22. Qf2
a5 23. g4 Rxe1 24. Rxe1 Re8 25. Rxe8  Qxe8 26. Qf3 Qe6 27. b3 Nd5 28. a4 Nb4 29.
Qd1 h5 30. Kh2 hxg4 31. hxg4 g6 32. g5 Kf8 33. Kg3 Ke7 34. Qd2 Nd5 35. Qe1 Qxe1 
36. Nxe1 Kd6 37. Kf3 Ke6 38. Ng2 Nb4 39. Ne1 Kf5 40. Kg3 Nd5 41. Ng2 Ne3 42. Ne1
Nd5 43. Ng2 Ne3 44. Ne1 Ke6 45. Kf2 Kd6 46. c4 Ke6 47. Ng2 Nd1  48. Kf3 Nc3 49. Nh4
Na2 50. Ke2 Nb4 51. Kd2 1/2-1/2
  
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MNb
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #7 - 05/11/06 at 01:36:11
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I attached an exclamation mark, because 3...d5 looks like a straight equalizer to me. Personally as Black I would favour a plan with an early b7-b5-b4 too, as Black creates more winning chances.
Kylemeister, don't you think Black's play easily can be improved in that Gulko - Kremenietsky game? Neither 10...Nd7 nor 13...Bxc3 look very good to me.
If White wants to follow Chanov-Zaitsjik, 1979, there is also Morris-Minnican, Isle of Lewis 1995 (11...h6) and Kobe-Ftacnik, Ljubljana 2004 (9...Bd7 10.Nge2 d4!).
I have been looking at some of the more interesting variations of the Göring/Danish Gambit Declined (from Black's point of view) and compared them with that Closed Sicilian line. Quite often the extra move g3 is somewhat weakening. Despite the not so promising results White's best try might be 3.g3 d5 4.exd5 exd5 5.d4 cxd4 6.Qxd4 Nf6 7.Bg5 Be7 8.o-o-o Nc6 9.Qa4 Be6 10.Nge2 o-o 11.Bg2 Qb6 12.Be3 (12.Nd4!? idea 13.Qb5) Bc5 13.Bxc5 Qxc5 14.Nd4 Yildiz-Kursova, WCh U18 G Halkidiki 2004.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #6 - 05/10/06 at 22:45:41
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I thought this whole d4 approach used to be given as better for Black, but what I now find is 5. d4 (5. Bg2 Nf6 6. d4 cd 7. Qxd4 Nc6 8. Qd1 d4 9. Nce2 Bc5 10. Nf3 Bf5 11. 0-0 0-0 12. Nf4 Re8 slight advantage to Black, Suttles-Tal 1973/4) cd 6. Qxd4 Nf6 7. Bg5 Be7 8. Bb5+ (8. Bg2 Nc6 9. Qa4 0-0 10. 0-0-0 Qb6 11. Nh3 Bxh3 12. Bxh3 h6 13. Be3 Bc5 unclear, Khanov-Zaichik 1979) Nc6 9. Bxf6 Bxf6 10. Qc5 Bxc3 11. bc Qe7+ 12. Qxe7 Kxe7 13. 0-0-0 Be6 equal, Gdanski-Wojtkiewicz 1993.  I'd say that the 8. Bb5+ line doesn't look inspiring (it looks quite similar to an ending from the Goering Gambit Declined, incidentally), but the 8. Bg2 plus 0-0-0 stuff looks rather interesting and critical ...      
  
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #5 - 05/10/06 at 21:40:58
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why is 1e4 c5 2Nc3 e6 3g3 d5 4ed ed 5d4 cd 6Qxd4 dubious for white kylemeister? how does black gain an advantage against it?
  
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #4 - 05/10/06 at 18:50:40
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I would think that 1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 e6 3. g3 d5 4. ed ed 5. d4 cd 6. Qxd4 is considered dubious for White ... comparable to the line 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. g3 c6 4. Bg2 d5 5. cd cd 6. d4 ed 7. Qxd4, while 1. c4 e5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 c6 4. d4 ed 5. Qxd4 d5 6. Nf3 is considered much more respectable (no knight on c3 exposed to an early ...d4 boot).  One thing you might look at versus 2...e6 is this game, which I recall being cited in BCO or some such book as slightly better for White ...

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1053593
  
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #3 - 05/10/06 at 18:27:49
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I  would be somewhat hesitant to give 3...d5 a !. I don't think its any better than some of the other lines black has at his disposal. when i played the closed sicilian i found lines with an early Rb8 by black and subsequent rapid qside pawn advance more problematical. After 1e4 c5 2Nc3 e6 3g3 d5 4ed ed 5d4 cd 6Qxd4 I don't see why white would worry however black continues. And of course there are other options for white at move 5.
No doubt Pallisers book will be good but maybe Bb5 lines are a better anti Sicilian choice. It's probably just  a matter of taste.
  
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #2 - 05/09/06 at 01:48:29
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Begin looking at 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.g3 d5!
If you don't mind to play the King's Indian Attack, then 1.e4 c5 2.d3 idea answering d5 with Nbd2 is worth considering. Don't expect an objective advantage. At the other hand these days the Najdorf and the Svesjnikov are supposed to be equal as well. I am afraid White must be satisfied reaching an interesting position, full of play for both sides in the Sicilian. On amateur level that should be enough.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Re: Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out b
Reply #1 - 05/08/06 at 21:04:16
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It is a good system opening, so that once you learned it sticks. Plus it leaves some room for variety (eg check some games by Karpov with Ne2 and some games by Spassky with f4 and Nf3). However if black knows what he is doing there are far too many equalising lines (e6 with delayed and quick d5, Botwinnik setup and d6, e6 and g7 with Ne7 etc). I have played it for a very long time, but once I got at a certain level (not that high Wink) I have almost given it up entirely. I now use it as a backup line as I use a quick Nc3 to move-order black out of certain open lines, but if he chooses an inferior closed setup I may be tempted to head for the closed. Usually an inferior setup is still not good enough for an objective advantage, but will give you much easier play.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Closed Sicilian? Palliser's new Starting Out book
05/08/06 at 20:28:20
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I need something to play against the Sicilian. What is the current status of the
Closed Sicilian? Is it worth learning or does Black just gain easy equality?

I am asking this question because I am thinking of buying IM Palliser's new book
Starting Out: Closed Sicilian. Thanks.
  
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