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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Re: Personal Chess Manager - End of pen & paper! (Read 13883 times)
Willempie
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Re: Personal Chess Manager - End of pen & paper!
Reply #30 - 06/16/06 at 14:05:09
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tont wrote on 06/16/06 at 13:51:51:
@Willempie

I completely agree with you. 
I don't believe that I will be using one of these in the near future 
and I consider myself fairly tech savvy. 

I would just like to play all my league games with a digital clock
as I had a major incident last season playing away with an analog. 

For anyone else listening why do digital clocks cost €70+ there is a huge 
market for a comodity clock. 

I personally find them annoying unless you play Fischer times (I swear by the old Garde clocks), but yes those are also highly overpriced if you consider what you actually get.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Willempie
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Re: Personal Chess Manager - End of pen & paper!
Reply #29 - 06/16/06 at 14:02:43
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Apparently this is what it looks like:


I guess I will stick with pen and paper Wink
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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tont
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Re: Personal Chess Manager - End of pen & paper!
Reply #28 - 06/16/06 at 13:51:51
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@Willempie

I completely agree with you. 
I don't believe that I will be using one of these in the near future 
and I consider myself fairly tech savvy. 

I would just like to play all my league games with a digital clock
as I had a major incident last season playing away with an analog. 

For anyone else listening why do digital clocks cost €70+ there is a huge 
market for a comodity clock. 

  
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Re: Personal Chess Manager - End of pen & paper!
Reply #27 - 06/16/06 at 13:25:58
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Quote:
Sorry, but this is just not the case. Everyone I saw had trouble with the interface, and there were no problems with batteries/calibration, etc, as the maker had a team of reps at tournament setting everything up


Thanks for your opinion about your experience. My device is very sensitive when I touch the screen, and I have no such problem, but I will see in future tournaments what happens with other players and what are their opinions about that.

Quote:
TimS I was not referring to this Personal Manager gimmick but to the elctronic sensory boards Tony was referring to. 
 
As for allowing a different recording system like this Personal Manage thing I think it is prone to cheating - somebody develops thir own version which just happens to pop up the best move as suggested by Fritz   
 
No - we cannot allow it   


First of all, talking about electronic sensory boards, of course that is an ideal to play and not bother to write any moves,and for organizers it is easy but the big problem I see, is that it only will be possible when electronic sensory boards are available.
Personal Chess Manager disables all functions when in record mode and it is like an electronic scoresheet and nothing else. Talking about someone developing their own versions is a bit like Alice in wonderland, we are traveling to the fantasy world of our brains and imagination, one can imagine chess clocks that running faster for the opponent and lots of things...
In the sport world, there are one thing called: certified or approved materials by federations. All materials are tested acording to rules to be declared certified.

Quote:
In that case I dont see why anyone cant use his own pda/palmtop (iirc these are banned) with winboard or somesuch on it as long as you keep it in open view.
 

The problem is that personal pda or palmtop´s are not FIDE certified and are not tested to be aproved by FIDE and for this reason are not allowed to be used in tournaments because no one knows what is inside that machine, but of course can be used in cofee chess  Grin The same happens to chess clocks. FIDE have a list of certified clocks and it is impossible to pretend to use an old historic clock of Capablanca in modern tournaments or my cucu clock of my dinning room  Grin
In sports in general, there is one thing called certified materials that were tested according to rules of any sport. For example in tennis tournaments it is not possible to use any kind of racket. Materials have official measures and the same happens to chess pieces or boards.   





    
 
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Willempie
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Re: Personal Chess Manager - End of pen & paper!
Reply #26 - 06/15/06 at 16:16:35
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No I know that, but I was more referring to the need of at least one other active person for the scam. Without an extra person it will get quite difficult to pull off. And anyway I can imagine this being a concern in a master tournament with money at stake, but not really for the 98% percent of chessplayers who play at the club or at amateur tournaments. At least I wouldnt even consider taking the trouble (nor would I buy a specialised notation pda Wink)
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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tont
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Re: Personal Chess Manager - End of pen & paper!
Reply #25 - 06/15/06 at 16:04:37
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The reason you are half the rate is because you would take twice as long Grin

When I say peace of cake i mean it is a standard compact framework implementation no low level implementation required. 




 




  
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Willempie
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Re: Personal Chess Manager - End of pen & paper!
Reply #24 - 06/15/06 at 15:34:06
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tont wrote on 06/15/06 at 15:07:07:
Sorry Willempie It would be a peace of cake.

Set your PDA to connect the internet via bluetooth to a phone held in your breast pocket or carried by a spectator most PDAs have bluetooth by default. 

Write an app that reads the moves from the standard app that you are feeding moves into by either reading the datafile or parsing the clicks 
by placing a transparent form over the main screen.
 
When the app detects a new move post it to a website that has another user or a program which respondes with the move.

The move is displayed on the transparent layer in coded form 
IE very small dots that appear on the side of the screen or something similar. 

If anyone wants one of these I am cheap at €1000/day  Wink

That is certainly not a piece of cake (and yes I can do that too an I do it for half the money Wink), furthermore the device in question also is wireless making it just as prone for hacking by the owner.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Personal Chess Manager - End of pen & paper!
Reply #23 - 06/15/06 at 15:07:07
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Sorry Willempie It would be a peace of cake.

Set your PDA to connect the internet via bluetooth to a phone held in your breast pocket or carried by a spectator most PDAs have bluetooth by default. 

Write an app that reads the moves from the standard app that you are feeding moves into by either reading the datafile or parsing the clicks 
by placing a transparent form over the main screen.
 
When the app detects a new move post it to a website that has another user or a program which respondes with the move.

The move is displayed on the transparent layer in coded form 
IE very small dots that appear on the side of the screen or something similar. 

If anyone wants one of these I am cheap at €1000/day  Wink

 

  
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Re: Personal Chess Manager - End of pen & paper!
Reply #22 - 06/15/06 at 14:30:38
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TimS wrote on 06/15/06 at 14:13:28:
Who knows how your pda has been set up? Anyway, your opponent shdn't have to monitor your device to ensure you aren't cheating

Well I think FIDE is taking the totally wrong approach with these electronic devices (the cell phone ban being the most idiotic). They assume people will cheat and then make the rules accordingly. 
Furthermore I fail to see how you would be able to cheat with a standard pda. Even if I set it up like that it would be nearly impossible to make it suggest moves/lookup games/whatever else without anyone noticing.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Personal Chess Manager - End of pen & paper!
Reply #21 - 06/15/06 at 14:13:28
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Willempie wrote on 06/15/06 at 14:10:45:
TimS wrote on 06/15/06 at 13:58:01:
Willempie wrote on 06/15/06 at 13:54:06:
In that case I dont see why anyone cant use his own pda/palmtop (iirc these are banned) with winboard or somesuch on it as long as you keep it in open view.

As Keano points out, this would be open to cheating. The system tried at Hastings was simply able to record moves.
I found it too much of a hassle to use but it did allow people on the internet to follow games live (sensory boards do the same but are much more espensive and prone to the mishaps Keano mentioned)

How is that open to cheating any more than this thing? I have my pda, put it next to the board in open view, I open winboard in edit mode and put in the moves. My opponent has a clear view on the pda so any cheating would be quite an achievement.

Who knows how your pda has been set up? Anyway, your opponent shdn't have to monitor your device to ensure you aren't cheating
  
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Re: Personal Chess Manager - End of pen & paper!
Reply #20 - 06/15/06 at 14:10:45
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TimS wrote on 06/15/06 at 13:58:01:
Willempie wrote on 06/15/06 at 13:54:06:
In that case I dont see why anyone cant use his own pda/palmtop (iirc these are banned) with winboard or somesuch on it as long as you keep it in open view.

As Keano points out, this would be open to cheating. The system tried at Hastings was simply able to record moves.
I found it too much of a hassle to use but it did allow people on the internet to follow games live (sensory boards do the same but are much more espensive and prone to the mishaps Keano mentioned)

How is that open to cheating any more than this thing? I have my pda, put it next to the board in open view, I open winboard in edit mode and put in the moves. My opponent has a clear view on the pda so any cheating would be quite an achievement.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Personal Chess Manager - End of pen & paper!
Reply #19 - 06/15/06 at 13:58:01
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Willempie wrote on 06/15/06 at 13:54:06:
In that case I dont see why anyone cant use his own pda/palmtop (iirc these are banned) with winboard or somesuch on it as long as you keep it in open view.

As Keano points out, this would be open to cheating. The system tried at Hastings was simply able to record moves.
I found it too much of a hassle to use but it did allow people on the internet to follow games live (sensory boards do the same but are much more espensive and prone to the mishaps Keano mentioned)
  
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Willempie
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Re: Personal Chess Manager - End of pen & paper!
Reply #18 - 06/15/06 at 13:54:06
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In that case I dont see why anyone cant use his own pda/palmtop (iirc these are banned) with winboard or somesuch on it as long as you keep it in open view.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Personal Chess Manager - End of pen & paper!
Reply #17 - 06/15/06 at 13:53:01
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TimS I was not referring to this Personal Manager gimmick but to the elctronic sensory boards Tony was referring to.

As for allowing a different recording system like this Personal Manage thing I think it is prone to cheating - somebody develops thir own version which just happens to pop up the best move as suggested by Fritz  Undecided

No - we cannot allow it  Angry
  
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Re: Personal Chess Manager - End of pen & paper!
Reply #16 - 06/15/06 at 13:43:47
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Willempie wrote on 06/15/06 at 13:39:23:

So what happens when you put in the wrong move, eg 1.. e6 iso of 1.. e5, which can easily happen on a touch based pda?
I would assume you have the option to take back the move and if that is the case you could potentially look a move further than just with the old pen and paper.

This is true. The system is a bit like using a server-based chess board. Of course under the current rules you should not put in ...e6/e5 until AFTER the move has been played
  
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