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Normal Topic Old Indian Defense (Read 8148 times)
Dinomike100
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Re: Old Indian Defense
Reply #5 - 06/25/06 at 19:55:01
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The game is interesting, but with the move order I play, it may take a very long time to safely get the pawn to e4.  This is because unlike in the game, my queen's bishop is still inside the pawn chain, so I have one less supporter for the advance.  I'm not sure if it would be as effective with a white Nd2 and Qc7 following, and then a Qb fianchetto for white.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Old Indian Defense
Reply #4 - 06/25/06 at 15:37:35
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I would say that either recapture is fine; 5...Nxe5 6. Nxe5 (White should probably try something else) de 7. Dxd8+ Kxd8 looks like an improved version of the Ukrainian, with easy equality.  5...de may be preferable, or at least more ambitious.  Then Black would have the option of developing his bishop actively along its original diagonal, without having played ...g6 first.  Black might aim for a later ...e4 with cramping effect (which reminds me of the game below), unless White plays e4, which creates a structure dubious for him.  Bottom line, 5. de looks completely innocuous; it's one of those moves you would probably never see played in a high-level game.


[Event "New York ch-USA"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1972.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Kaufman, Larry Charles"]
[Black "Kavalek, Lubomir"]
[Result "0-1"]
[NIC "RE 20.4.7"]
[ECO "A21"]
[PlyCount "46"]

1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 d6 3. Nf3 Bg4 4. d4 Nd7 5. e3 Ngf6 6. Be2 c6 7. h3 Bh5 8. dxe5 dxe5
9. O-O e4 10. Nd2 Bg6 11. b3 Qc7 12. Qc2 Qe5 13. Rd1 Bd6 14. Nf1 O-O 15. Bb2 Qe7
16. Rd2 Ne5 17. Rad1 Nf3  18. gxf3 exf3 19. Bd3 Qe6 20. Ng3 Qxh3 21. Bf1 Qh6 22.
Bd3 Ng4 23. Nce4 Qh3 0-1


  
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Dinomike100
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Re: Old Indian Defense
Reply #3 - 06/25/06 at 09:26:46
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Thanks for the replies.  I think I may start using this as my main defense to 1. d4, 1. c4, and 1. Nf3 now.  I like the fact that black can arrange his pieces in many different configurations, it gives a lot of room for innovation. 

I now have another question however:

This probably is also an issue in a king's indian attack formation but what if the following sequence occurs:

1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 d6
3. Nc3 Nbd7
4. Nf3 e5
5. dxe5

Now black has 2 responses:

5. ...Nxe5
6. Nxe5 dxe5
7. Qxd8 Kxd8

I don't have enough experience with this to tell if this is bad for black or if it is easy equality.  I am uncertain because there is also the Ukrainian Old Indian where an exchange in the center supposedly brings fairly easy equality (at least in Petrosian's games).  Here is the sequence: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 d6 3. Nc3 e5 4. dxe5 dxe5 5. Qxd8 Kxd8 and then black follows up with c6 and eventually Kc6. 

Then there is the response (probably consistent with KIA):

5. ...dxe5

This prevents an exchange of knights, etc.  I recently had a game like this and I replied 5. ...dxe5.  Eventually my opponent fianchettoed his QB and was exerting quite a bit of pressure on my e-pawn with his knight, bishop, and queen.  This was exacerbated because my knight stayed on f6 for a while and I couldn't provide support to e5 via a pawn.

I managed to keep almost equal with a few tactical sequences, although I can still say I lost in the middle game.  I ended up swindling my opponent in the endgame and won, however.

Anyway, I was wondering what the recommendation would be here.

  
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MNb
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Re: Old Indian Defense
Reply #2 - 06/22/06 at 01:32:09
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I would like to mention three other points.
There is the Pickett Shuffle: c6, Qe8, Be7-d8-a5. A successfull example is Farago-Hickl, Altensteig 1987.
Black can try an attack on the queen's wing with a6, c6 and b5. See eg Smagin-Lobron, BL 1991 and Eingorn-Malanjuk, Kyiv 1986.
Finally Black can transpose to the old version of the KID: 1...Nf6; 2...d6; 3...Nbd7; 4...e5; 5...g6; 6...Bg7 and 7...o-o. So Black can postpone his choice, until he has some idea what White's setup will be. This might be handy to avoid sharp systems like the Four Pawns and the Sämisch.

Imo the Old-Indian is a bit passive, but playable if Black knows how, where and when to create counterplay.
  

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Uberdecker
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Re: Old Indian Defense
Reply #1 - 06/21/06 at 12:19:35
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Dear Mike,

  I think you posted this in right section. After all, the Old Indian (or at least in the form that you wish to play it ) isn't exactly a "daring defence"...
In my view, there are two important differences with the KID :
First of all, since Black does not fianchetto his K's Bishop (and doesn't play ...Ktc6) he has less pressure on -d4 and will find it more difficult to force White to close the centre with d5. Black usually must resort to playing ...ed himself, and trying to put some pressure on -e4 with moves such as ...Re8/...Bf8 and maybe ...Ktc5 and ...a5 or ...Kte6. Another possible plan, depending on the situation, is breaking with ...c6 and ...d5. In any case you must ask yourself whether you would prefer to have your KB on -f8 or -g7 in these positions...
Secondy, if White does close the centre with d5, Black does not have the same ...f5 break as in the KID, since ef cannot be answered by gf. A more typical plan is ...Ktd7-f8-g6 with King side piece play.

An old-Indian setup is playable against virtually anything (1. Ktf3/ 1. c4 etc),
but against 1. e4, it's called a Philidor (only against the King's Gambit is it inferior).

So if you're looking for a solid, universal defence, it's well worth considering.
And let's not forget Averbach-Kotov Zurich '53...

                                                            Regards,
                                                                 Hubert
  
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Dinomike100
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Old Indian Defense
06/21/06 at 04:07:22
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I'm not sure if this is in the correct section, so if it isn't please feel free to move it to another section of the forum.

I was wondering if anyone could tell me why the Old Indian defense isn't played very much anymore.  I have seen the reasoning that it isn't nearly as aggressive as the king's indian defense.  However, would the Old Indian be a good choice if one is looking for a solid defense that is less well known.  That is, is the Old Indian a good way to avoid lots of theory?  Also, is the Old Indian setup good against 1. Nf3 and 1. c4, because if it is that is a major plus.  The specific setup I am thinking of is:

1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 d6
3. Nf3 Nd7 
4. ...e4

(I know there are other old indian setups)
  
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