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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Classical Dutch: State of Play (Read 117485 times)
MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #36 - 07/10/07 at 20:52:09
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I chose the French for two reasons:
1) I had never tried it before as Black and I like to change now and then, just to wet my appetite;
2) It allows me to play 1.d4 e6 as well, just like the Pirc allows Black to play 1.d4 d6.

If not the French and the Pirc, there is not much choice left. Basically there are three:
1) the English/Owen Defence: 1.d4 e6 2.e4 b6.
2) the Puc or the Czech Defence: 1.d4 d6 2.e4 Nf6 3.Nc3 c6.
3) the Lion: 1.d4 d6 2.e4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 (or e5).
In the end I found, that none of these three are active enough to my taste.

So not much help, I am afraid.
At the other hand, the French gives Black a fair choice, so you might consider it.
  

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bohdan
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #35 - 07/10/07 at 19:25:33
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Dear MNb,

first thank you for the responce to my first post here

I would like to ask you (or someone else) advise

Recently i started to play Bird's 91.f4), as it allow me to play KG and Grand Prix, while avoiding all other responce to 1.e4, which i do not like. With 1.f4 d5 i sticked to classical system. the classical dutch I choose as responce to 1.d4, as this is similar to the way I play agaisnt flank openings (system with d6, e5 and f5). My question now is what to play against 1.e4? Till now I played Modern/Pirc system, but would like to change (or to add new).

i know that you are playing classical dutch a lot, and as responce to 1.e4 French is your choice. if not french what would you suggest? Why you choose french?

thnaks in advance

Bohdan
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #34 - 11/18/06 at 02:43:23
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The only Parker - Jones game I see in this line is here: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1426276

In this game, Jones plays 10...exf3, not the same plan Black chooses in the Jones - Williams game below.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #33 - 11/16/06 at 12:12:34
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Jones-Williams is a very puzzling game indeed. If he was confident in his new idea, why didn't Williams continue? Furthermore, we shouldn't forget that Jones lost badly as Black in this line (v Parker, British Ch. 2006).
Maybe Glenn will give this line some attention?
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #32 - 11/10/06 at 05:50:51
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Back to 7...Ne4: has Simon Williams shown the way?  I just stumbled across this game:

[Event "European Union Individual Championships"]
[Site "Liverpool ENG"]
[Date "2006.09.14"]
[EventDate "2006.09.06"]
[Round "9"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[White "G Jones"]
[Black "Si Williams"]
[ECO "A96"]
[WhiteElo "2416"]
[BlackElo "2473"]
[PlyCount "34"]

1. d4 e6 2. c4 f5 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. g3 Be7 5. Bg2 O-O 6. O-O d6 7. Nc3 Ne4 8.
Nxe4 fxe4 9. Nd2 d5 10. f3 Nc6 11. fxe4 Rxf1+ 12. Nxf1 dxc4 13. Be3 a6 14.
e5 Rb8 15. Rc1 Nb4 16. a3 Nd5 17. Rxc4 b5 1/2-1/2


Certainly Black's troubles probably aren't over that easily, but 13...a6 14.e5 Rb8 is an interesting idea.  Any comments?!?

  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #31 - 08/31/06 at 18:50:16
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Well, I've done some comparing, and I still don't get a clear answer to my question.  So here are some lines to clarify:

1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nf3 e6 4.g3 Be7 5.Bg2 0-0 6.0-0 d6 7.Nc3 a5 8.Re1 Ne4 9.Nxe4 fxe4 10.Nd2 d5 11.f3
and Black has four choices:

a) 11...e3 12.Nb1 dxc4 13.Bxe3 looks good for White to me;

b) 11...c5? looks bad due to 12.fxe4 dxe4 (12...dxc4 13.d5 b5 14.e5 exd5 15.Nxc4!) 13.dxc5!  White is much better;

c) 11...Nc6 12.fxe4 dxc4 13.e3 looks pretty good for White, as 13...Bb4 can just be met with 14.a3 and an advantage (IMO).  This leaves only:

d) 11..exf3 12.Nxf3 Nc6 (12...c5!?).  Now, according to my database this has only occured once(!), so there's not much to go on.  I understand that Black may be able to meet b2-b3 with a5-a4, and that ...Bb4 can be annoying at times, but...basically with so little information it isn't clear that this is that much better for Black than the line after 7...Ne4.  And anyway, if the other line was supposed to be quite good for White (+/- maybe), it seems reasonable that White can prove a +/= here.

I'll keep looking at the position...
  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #30 - 08/30/06 at 21:00:48
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/29/06 at 04:28:41:
Maybe I'm missing something, but if the line 1.d4 f5 2.g3 e6 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.Nf3 Be7 5.0-0 0-0 6.c4 d6 7.Nc3 Ne4 8.Nxe4! is supposed to be strong for White, why isn't the similar  7.Nc3 a5 8.Re1 Ne4 9.Nxe4!? played more often?  It isn't clear to me that the inclusion of Re1 and ...a5 favours Black.  


For no less than three reasons: the rook on e1 denies the retreat Ne1 after ...fxe4; a little later x.f3 often can be answered with ...e3 and finally (if the pawn already is on b3) the pin ...Bb4 can be strong. An example is Brenninkmeijer-Schmittdiel, ZSG-100, 1992.
It is important to figure out all the details. They are decisive on the strenght of ...Ne4. Having you put on the right track, I must leave you here: Feind hört mit.  Wink

PS an addition: you should compare 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Be7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.0-0 d6 7.Nc3
a) 7...Ne4 8.Nxe4 fxe4
b) 7...a5 8.Re1 Ne4 9.Nxe4 fxe4
c) 7...Qe8 8.Re1 Ne4 9.Nxe4 fxe4
d) 7...Qe8 8.b3 a5 9.Re1 Ne4 10.Nxe4 fxe4
e) 7...Qe8 8.b3 a5 9.Bb2 Na6 10.Re1 Ne4 11.Nxe4 fxe4

and maybe also 6...Ne4 7.Nxe4 fxe4.
« Last Edit: 08/31/06 at 02:36:16 by MNb »  

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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #29 - 08/29/06 at 04:28:41
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Maybe I'm missing something, but if the line 1.d4 f5 2.g3 e6 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.Nf3 Be7 5.0-0 0-0 6.c4 d6 7.Nc3 Ne4 8.Nxe4! is supposed to be strong for White, why isn't the similar  7.Nc3 a5 8.Re1 Ne4 9.Nxe4!? played more often?  It isn't clear to me that the inclusion of Re1 and ...a5 favours Black. 



  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #28 - 08/25/06 at 04:40:36
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/24/06 at 06:00:32:
6/7...a5 never really bothered me.  I'm much more concerned when Black acts like the Dutch is a fighting weapon and threatens the center directly with 7...Qe8.  Even 7...Ne4 is more worrisome than 7...a5.

Of course, I don't play international chess tournaments, so my concern lies mostly with the U2400 crowd. But I did score one of my wins against an IM who played 7...a5.  I didn't play the most topical response and got berated for my cowardice afterwards.  The game itself isn't so special, but it was nice to beat a 2500+ IM.


That IM was talking nonsense of course. The Classical Dutch is risky, so even if White plays the opening suboptimal things can go wrong for Black.
Best after 7...Qe8 is 8.b3. Williams recommends Nbd7 and Ne4; Hayward just plays Nc6 and the old fashioned lines are a5 and Qh5. I won't go in further details, as I hope to get this in ICCF games before long.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #27 - 08/25/06 at 04:31:40
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Paul,

Do you have any games you'd care to share that demonstrate the strength of 7...a5?  Apparently, I need to work on that part of my repertoire.

Thanks!
  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #26 - 08/24/06 at 20:13:10
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MNb wrote on 08/24/06 at 02:55:48:
Nothing. I find 7...a5 (or maybe more precise 6...a5 7.Nc3 d6, to avoid 7.b4) more attractive than 7...Ne4. One should scrutinize Williams' analysis though.
One example. After 8.Bg5 he cites Hartoch-Vaisser, Brussel 1993: Nbd7 9.Qc2 Ng4 10.Bxe7 Qxe7 11.e4 f4 12.h3 Nh6 but does not treat possible improvements at move 13. In my notes I find 13.Rae1 and I am not convinced of equality. In general I don't like playing the queen's knight to d7. Then compare Devereaux-Williams, Swansea 2006 (the knight was on c6 iso d7) which saw a white advantage after 13.Rad1 e5 14.Nd5. While the exchange of the black squared bishops indeed favours Black in general, the manoeuvre Nf6-g4-f6 consumes too much time.
So I recommend 8.Bg5 Qe8 and 8.Qc2 Nc6 9.Bg5 h6 (Qe8!?).



Thanks MNb..        About a year ago we got into a discussion about the Classical Dutch.    I  had an old copy of Winning with the Dutch by Bellin.  I liked what I saw, so I have been at it since, playing 7..a5      ( Hey, does this make me one of your converted neophytes ?)


I have had some really nice games...with 7…a5

I've even done a few postal games, they turned out well too.....0-1 and 1/2-1/2..

I agree,  I don't like the knight at d7 (It doesn’t have real scope (imo)   


  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #25 - 08/24/06 at 06:00:32
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6/7...a5 never really bothered me.  I'm much more concerned when Black acts like the Dutch is a fighting weapon and threatens the center directly with 7...Qe8.  Even 7...Ne4 is more worrisome than 7...a5.

Of course, I don't play international chess tournaments, so my concern lies mostly with the U2400 crowd. But I did score one of my wins against an IM who played 7...a5.  I didn't play the most topical response and got berated for my cowardice afterwards.  The game itself isn't so special, but it was nice to beat a 2500+ IM.
  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #24 - 08/24/06 at 02:55:48
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Nothing. I find 7...a5 (or maybe more precise 6...a5 7.Nc3 d6, to avoid 7.b4) more attractive than 7...Ne4. One should scrutinize Williams' analysis though.
One example. After 8.Bg5 he cites Hartoch-Vaisser, Brussel 1993: Nbd7 9.Qc2 Ng4 10.Bxe7 Qxe7 11.e4 f4 12.h3 Nh6 but does not treat possible improvements at move 13. In my notes I find 13.Rae1 and I am not convinced of equality. In general I don't like playing the queen's knight to d7. Then compare Devereaux-Williams, Swansea 2006 (the knight was on c6 iso d7) which saw a white advantage after 13.Rad1 e5 14.Nd5. While the exchange of the black squared bishops indeed favours Black in general, the manoeuvre Nf6-g4-f6 consumes too much time.
So I recommend 8.Bg5 Qe8 and 8.Qc2 Nc6 9.Bg5 h6 (Qe8!?).
  

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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #23 - 08/23/06 at 03:17:30
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I thought 

1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.g3 e6 4.Bg2 Be7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.0-0 d6 7.Nc3 a5  was completely serviceable..

what am I misssing?



  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #22 - 08/08/06 at 02:17:55
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Hello JN,

as I find this kind of 1 ply deep analyzing quite fruitless, this will be my last answer. My point is, that some respectable people claim a white edge after 9.Nd2 d5 10.f3 based on some convincing lines. Now it might very well be the case, that 10...Bf6 11.e3 exf3 is a significant improvement.  But one should try to back this with some lines too! My objection is that you have not done your best to find White's best play. It is poor just to say 12.Nxf3 b6 "is absolutely fine", end of debate.
The same with 13.Ne5 Bb7 14.Ng4 Nd7 15.Nxf6+ Nxf6. No matter what Fritz says, I see White having the pair of bishops and Black having a bishop whose activity is limited by its own pawns. If you think these factors unimportant, than that's fine with me.
I will leave it to you to try harder on 13.b4 Bb7 14.c5.
At the other hand, if you are convinced that these lines are OK for Black I suggest trying them in practice. I wish you good luck with it.
For me I don't see much point in defending White's case nor helping you to disentangling the riddles of this variation.
Bye,

MNb
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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