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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Ruy Lopez Chigorin 12. d5 (Read 22748 times)
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Re: Ruy Lopez Chigorin 12. d5
Reply #16 - yesterday at 18:25:11
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Paddy wrote on 08/16/06 at 10:05:35:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8. h3 d6 9. c3 Na5 10. Bc2 c5 11. d4 Qc7 12. d5 Nc4 13. b3 Nb6 14. a4 Bd7

Perhaps black can mix things up with 14...c4!? The TWIC data base shows +13 -8 =16.

GM Papaioannou considers 12...Nd7 which transposes to the Keres variation,
11. d4 Nd7 12. d5!? Qc7. 12...Nb6 is more common in that line.

  
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Re: Ruy Lopez Chigorin 12. d5
Reply #15 - 05/26/10 at 09:54:47
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brabo wrote on 05/22/10 at 15:16:30:
Paddy wrote on 05/22/10 at 12:59:14:
JhF wrote on 05/22/10 at 12:30:41:
I agree with that, 12.d5 is a practical weapon, solid and simple.

Is the game available somewhere for us to have a look at?


Well, this game was not so "solid and simple", as you will see. Black went for immediate queenside counterplay and White responded by exploiting an advantage of still having his knight on b1!

[Event "FIDE Grand Prix 2010"]
[Site "Astrakhan, Russia"]
[Date "2010.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Gashimov, Vugar (AZE)"]
[Black "Inarkiev, Ernesto (RUS)"]
[Result "1-0"]
[PlyCount "99"]
[EventDate "2010.??.??"]
[TimeControl "7200"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3
O-O 9. h3 Na5 10. Bc2 c5 11. d4 Qc7 12. d5 c4 13. b4 cxb3 14. axb3 Bd7 15. Bd3
Rfb8 16. Re2 Nb7 17. b4 Qc8 18. Rea2 Nd8 19. Ra3 Ne8 20. Nbd2 g6 21. Qe1 f5 22.
exf5 gxf5 23. c4 bxc4 24. Nxc4 Nf7 25. Bf1 Bf6 26. Bd2 Nc7 27. Rc1 Qd8 28. Na5
Nxd5 29. Bc4 Nb6 30. Ba2 d5 31. Be3 Qe8 32. Bxb6 Rxb6 33. Bxd5 Rab8 34. Nc4 Re6
35. Rd1 Rb5 36. Bxe6 Qxe6 37. Rad3 Bc6 38. Nd6 Bxf3 39. gxf3 Rb8 40. f4 e4 41.
Rg3+ Kf8 42. Nxf7 Kxf7 43. Qe2 Rb7 44. Qh5+ Kf8 45. Qh6+ Ke8 46. Rc1 Rf7 47.
Rg8+ Kd7 48. Rgc8 Qb6 49. Qh5 Rg7+ 50. Kh1 1-0

The Web is a terrific rseource for chess fans these days. The official website is at
http://astrakhan2010.fide.com

and I usually check out these sites first when there are important events on:

http://www.chess.co.uk/twic/twic.html
http://www.chessbase.com
http://www.chessvibes.com


I don't understand that Inarkiev with his status still ditches up 12... c4 which has known to be not good since 1976. A young Kasparov amazed the chessscene at that time by blowing his opponent in devastating style from the board. The move hasn't been selected anymore by a grandmaster since 1994 so that also says a lot. I know this stuff because I played the dubious move myself in 2004 and after a long tough fight was finally defeated by my young opponent, an international master at that time, nowadays a grandmaster. For the record in that game my opponent chose for 15. Ba3 which is as 15. Bd3 or 15. Bd2 (the choice of the young Kasparov) also good for an advantage.

Nowadays I play 12.., Bd7 with better success. B.t.w. c4 can become interesting if white has played Nbd2 or a4 so the strike b4 has become weak.


For annotations byAlexander Baburin of this very interesting game. see Chess Today 141.
http://www.chesstoday.net
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez Chigorin 12. d5
Reply #14 - 05/22/10 at 21:32:11
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Of course ...c4 is stronger when a4 is played. Anyway I believe 12...c4 is quite playable. I don't like too much Irnakiev's 15...Rfb8 and the later Nb7. When black plays Nb7 follows b4 and the night is as usual misplaced. White plays on the queenside. As i said before the a5 knight should stay on a5 aiming for c4 should white push b4. In fact in that old Kasparov game black played Nb7.
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez Chigorin 12. d5
Reply #13 - 05/22/10 at 15:16:30
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Paddy wrote on 05/22/10 at 12:59:14:
JhF wrote on 05/22/10 at 12:30:41:
I agree with that, 12.d5 is a practical weapon, solid and simple.

Is the game available somewhere for us to have a look at?


Well, this game was not so "solid and simple", as you will see. Black went for immediate queenside counterplay and White responded by exploiting an advantage of still having his knight on b1!

[Event "FIDE Grand Prix 2010"]
[Site "Astrakhan, Russia"]
[Date "2010.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Gashimov, Vugar (AZE)"]
[Black "Inarkiev, Ernesto (RUS)"]
[Result "1-0"]
[PlyCount "99"]
[EventDate "2010.??.??"]
[TimeControl "7200"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3
O-O 9. h3 Na5 10. Bc2 c5 11. d4 Qc7 12. d5 c4 13. b4 cxb3 14. axb3 Bd7 15. Bd3
Rfb8 16. Re2 Nb7 17. b4 Qc8 18. Rea2 Nd8 19. Ra3 Ne8 20. Nbd2 g6 21. Qe1 f5 22.
exf5 gxf5 23. c4 bxc4 24. Nxc4 Nf7 25. Bf1 Bf6 26. Bd2 Nc7 27. Rc1 Qd8 28. Na5
Nxd5 29. Bc4 Nb6 30. Ba2 d5 31. Be3 Qe8 32. Bxb6 Rxb6 33. Bxd5 Rab8 34. Nc4 Re6
35. Rd1 Rb5 36. Bxe6 Qxe6 37. Rad3 Bc6 38. Nd6 Bxf3 39. gxf3 Rb8 40. f4 e4 41.
Rg3+ Kf8 42. Nxf7 Kxf7 43. Qe2 Rb7 44. Qh5+ Kf8 45. Qh6+ Ke8 46. Rc1 Rf7 47.
Rg8+ Kd7 48. Rgc8 Qb6 49. Qh5 Rg7+ 50. Kh1 1-0

The Web is a terrific rseource for chess fans these days. The official website is at
http://astrakhan2010.fide.com

and I usually check out these sites first when there are important events on:

http://www.chess.co.uk/twic/twic.html
http://www.chessbase.com
http://www.chessvibes.com


I don't understand that Inarkiev with his status still ditches up 12... c4 which has known to be not good since 1976. A young Kasparov amazed the chessscene at that time by blowing his opponent in devastating style from the board. The move hasn't been selected anymore by a grandmaster since 1994 so that also says a lot. I know this stuff because I played the dubious move myself in 2004 and after a long tough fight was finally defeated by my young opponent, an international master at that time, nowadays a grandmaster. For the record in that game my opponent chose for 15. Ba3 which is as 15. Bd3 or 15. Bd2 (the choice of the young Kasparov) also good for an advantage.

Nowadays I play 12.., Bd7 with better success. B.t.w. c4 can become interesting if white has played Nbd2 or a4 so the strike b4 has become weak.
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez Chigorin 12. d5
Reply #12 - 05/22/10 at 12:59:14
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JhF wrote on 05/22/10 at 12:30:41:
I agree with that, 12.d5 is a practical weapon, solid and simple.

Is the game available somewhere for us to have a look at?


Well, this game was not so "solid and simple", as you will see. Black went for immediate queenside counterplay and White responded by exploiting an advantage of still having his knight on b1!

[Event "FIDE Grand Prix 2010"]
[Site "Astrakhan, Russia"]
[Date "2010.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Gashimov, Vugar (AZE)"]
[Black "Inarkiev, Ernesto (RUS)"]
[Result "1-0"]
[PlyCount "99"]
[EventDate "2010.??.??"]
[TimeControl "7200"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3
O-O 9. h3 Na5 10. Bc2 c5 11. d4 Qc7 12. d5 c4 13. b4 cxb3 14. axb3 Bd7 15. Bd3
Rfb8 16. Re2 Nb7 17. b4 Qc8 18. Rea2 Nd8 19. Ra3 Ne8 20. Nbd2 g6 21. Qe1 f5 22.
exf5 gxf5 23. c4 bxc4 24. Nxc4 Nf7 25. Bf1 Bf6 26. Bd2 Nc7 27. Rc1 Qd8 28. Na5
Nxd5 29. Bc4 Nb6 30. Ba2 d5 31. Be3 Qe8 32. Bxb6 Rxb6 33. Bxd5 Rab8 34. Nc4 Re6
35. Rd1 Rb5 36. Bxe6 Qxe6 37. Rad3 Bc6 38. Nd6 Bxf3 39. gxf3 Rb8 40. f4 e4 41.
Rg3+ Kf8 42. Nxf7 Kxf7 43. Qe2 Rb7 44. Qh5+ Kf8 45. Qh6+ Ke8 46. Rc1 Rf7 47.
Rg8+ Kd7 48. Rgc8 Qb6 49. Qh5 Rg7+ 50. Kh1 1-0

The Web is a terrific rseource for chess fans these days. The official website is at
http://astrakhan2010.fide.com

and I usually check out these sites first when there are important events on:

http://www.chess.co.uk/twic/twic.html
http://www.chessbase.com
http://www.chessvibes.com
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez Chigorin 12. d5
Reply #11 - 05/22/10 at 12:30:41
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I agree with that, 12.d5 is a practical weapon, solid and simple.

Is the game available somewhere for us to have a look at?
  
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Paddy
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Re: Ruy Lopez Chigorin 12. d5
Reply #10 - 05/22/10 at 12:03:07
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JhF wrote on 05/19/10 at 21:19:46:
What exactly is the reason for black playing ..Ng5? Is it to fix white's pawn advance?

It would be interesting to know under what types of circumstances Karjakin and others decide to play 12.d5, especially against such strong opponents. Surely it must be a piece of cake for them to play this correctly as black. Although, considering the Alekseev game, perhaps not.


Piece of cake indeed! The Old Benoni structure reached after 12 d5 is inherently somewhat better for White; he has a bit more space (pawn d5), and there is a full set of pieces remaining on the board, so there is no doubt that Black will be a bit cramped and will experience some difficulties in establishing harmony in his position. On the other hand, White has no weaknesses, can operate on either flank and can choose from several plans.

I suggest that the main reason that 12 d5 is not more popular is that by keeping the tension with 12 Nbd2 White hopes to get the same position-type with a bonus, e.g. after 12...Nc6 or 12...Bb7.

12 d5 is above all a useful (and reliable) practical weapon to have in one's armoury, since White gets to choose the position-type and in doing so is able to avoid falling into Black's undoubtedly deep prep. It is especially useful if the Black player's normal defence is based on opening the c-file after 12 Nbd2 and/or breaking with ...d5.

By the way, Gashimov has just won with12 d5 as White against Inarkiev in what might prove to be one of the key game at the Astrakhan Grand Prix tournament.
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez Chigorin 12. d5
Reply #9 - 05/19/10 at 21:34:48
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[Event "Capablanca Memorial-A"]
[Site "Havana"]
[Date "1990.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Antunes, Antonio"]
[Black "Granda Zuniga, Julio E"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C97"]
[WhiteElo "2445"]
[BlackElo "2510"]
[PlyCount "80"]
[EventDate "1990.??.??"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "13"]
[EventCountry "CUB"]
[EventCategory "9"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1999.11.16"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3
O-O 9. h3 Na5 10. Bc2 c5 11. d4 Qc7 12. d5 c4 13. b4 cxb3 14. axb3 Bd7 15. Ba3
Bd8 16. Nbd2 Qb8 17. Bd3 Bb6 18. Rf1 Rc8 19. Rc1 Ra7 20. Kh2 Ne8 21. Nh4 Bd8
22. Nf5 Bxf5 23. exf5 Bg5 24. Rc2 Bxd2 25. Rxd2 Nb7 26. Bb2 Nc5 27. f4 a5 28.
f6 Nxf6 29. fxe5 dxe5 30. Rxf6 e4+ 31. Kh1 Nxd3 32. Rxd3 exd3 33. Rf3 Re7 34.
Qxd3 Re1+ 35. Rf1 Rce8 36. Kg1 Qb6+ 37. Kh2 Qd6+ 38. Kg1 Qc5+ 39. Kh2 R8e3 40.
Qf5 Rxf1 0-1


[Event "Czestochowa op"]
[Site "Czestochowa"]
[Date "1992.??.??"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Cherkasov, Nikolai"]
[Black "Aleksandrov, Aleksej"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C97"]
[BlackElo "2505"]
[PlyCount "104"]
[EventDate "1992.??.??"]
[EventType "swiss"]
[EventRounds "9"]
[EventCountry "POL"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1994.03.01"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3
O-O 9. h3 Na5 10. Bc2 c5 11. d4 Qc7 12. d5 c4 13. b4 cxb3 14. axb3 Bd7 15. Bd3
Rfc8 16. Bg5 h6 17. Bd2 Be8 18. Na3 Bd8 19. Rb1 Qa7 20. Qe2 Bb6 21. Rec1 Rc7
22. Nc2 Nh5 23. Nxe5 f5 24. b4 Nc4 25. Bxc4 Ng3 26. Qf3 Nxe4 27. Be1 dxe5 28.
Bd3 Nxf2 29. Bxf2 e4 30. Bxb6 Qxb6+ 31. Qe3 Qxe3+ 32. Nxe3 exd3 33. d6 Rd7 34.
Nxf5 Bg6 35. Ne7+ Kh7 36. Nxg6 Kxg6 37. c4 Rxd6 38. c5 Rd4 39. Rd1 Kf5 40. Rd2
Ke4 41. Re1+ Kd5 42. Rc1 Kc6 43. Rc3 a5 44. Ra3 Rxb4 45. Raxd3 a4 46. Rd5 Re4
47. Rd6+ Kxc5 48. R6d5+ Kc4 49. Rd7 a3 50. Rc7+ Kb4 51. Rc1 Rc4 52. Rb1+ Ka4
0-1

When i studied this sistem (Now i play sicilian) i reached the conclusion that black shouldn't hurry playing Nb7 (after 13. b4 cb3 played ) because it encourages white queenside play with b4. Anyway strong players have played this way (i.e. Ildar Ibragimov) so this could be debatable.

A model game in Rubinstein spirit cuold be this one:

[Event "Leon"]
[Site "Leon"]
[Date "1994.??.??"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Sion Castro, Marcelino"]
[Black "Beliavsky, Alexander G"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C97"]
[WhiteElo "2380"]
[BlackElo "2650"]
[Annotator "Franco"]
[PlyCount "114"]
[EventDate "1994.05.??"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "9"]
[EventCountry "ESP"]
[EventCategory "12"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1994.10.01"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O b5 6. Bb3 Be7 7. Re1 d6 8. c3
O-O 9. h3 Na5 10. Bc2 c5 11. d4 Qc7 12. d5 Ne8 {/\ g6-f5} 13. b3 Nb7 {
/\ g6, Ng7, Nd8 Rubinstein} 14. Nbd2 g6 15. a4 Rb8 16. axb5 axb5 17. Nf1 Ng7
18. Bh6 (18. g4 $5) 18... Nd8 19. b4 $2 (19. g4 $5) 19... f6 20. Ra3 Nf7 21.
Bxg7 (21. Be3 f5) 21... Kxg7 22. Ng3 Bd8 $1 23. Qe2 c4 $1 {/^ a7-g1} 24. Rea1
Qd7 25. Ra7 Rb7 26. Ra8 Bb6 27. Nh2 Ra7 $1 28. R8xa7 Bxa7 29. Bd1 Bb6 30. Qg4
Qb7 31. Qe2 f5 $6 (31... h5 $5 {Beliavsky}) 32. exf5 Qxd5 33. Bc2 Ng5 34. Rd1
Qc6 35. Ne4 (35. Qg4 Bb7 36. Nh5+ gxh5 37. Qxg5+ Kh8 38. f6 $2 Rg8 39. f7 Qxg2+
$1 $19) 35... Nxe4 36. Qxe4 Qxe4 37. Bxe4 Bxf5 38. Bxf5 Rxf5 39. Ng4 Bc7 40.
Ne3 Rf8 41. Ra1 Bb6 42. Ra6 Bxe3 43. fxe3 Kf6 $1 44. e4 (44. Rxd6+ Kf5 45. Kf2
Ke4+ 46. Ke2 Ra8 47. Rd2 Ra3 48. Rc2 g5 $17) 44... Ke6 45. Ra5 Rf4 46. Rxb5
Rxe4 47. Kf2 Rf4+ 48. Ke2 Rf8 49. Ra5 h5 50. Ra7 Kd5 51. Ra6 g5 52. Ra7 Ke4 53.
Rg7 d5 54. Rxg5 d4 55. cxd4 exd4 56. Rxh5 d3+ 57. Ke1 c3 0-1

Hope this helps a bit Smiley
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez Chigorin 12. d5
Reply #8 - 05/19/10 at 21:19:46
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What exactly is the reason for black playing ..Ng5? Is it to fix white's pawn advance?

It would be interesting to know under what types of circumstances Karjakin and others decide to play 12.d5, especially against such strong opponents. Surely it must be a piece of cake for them to play this correctly as black. Although, considering the Alekseev game, perhaps not.
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez Chigorin 12. d5
Reply #7 - 05/19/10 at 21:06:30
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I agree with that, black played on the wrong side of the board. I think blacks best is just to sit tight on the kingside like in the game Karjakin and play on the queenside. In that way it is difficult for white to conduct anything really serious on the kingside. With this logic Im wondering about why Marin believes black should prevent a4.

In the Karjakin game white had more space in the endgame and the entry route via c4-b5. Instead of 55.Ke2 I am thinking maybe 55.Kc4, tying the black king to the defence, and then transfer the knight to the kingside, hoping to outplay the bad bishop. Haven't checked in detail though.

Edit: Im stupid, I see now that there are no prospects after 55.Kc4 Kb6 and ..Bd8
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez Chigorin 12. d5
Reply #6 - 05/19/10 at 20:15:58
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In Alekseev-Akopian it seems to me that the combination of 20... c4 and 21... Ng5 just didn't work. Black opens up the Q-side and at the same time saddles himself with a weakness @g5 at the K-side.

Another game that illustrates the black strategy well is Karjakin,S (2635)-Harikrishna,P (2646)/Dos Hermanas 2005. This looks like what Marin has in mind with Rubinstein play, right?
  
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Re
Reply #5 - 05/19/10 at 19:29:36
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"After the hurried 12...c4 white could play 13.b4 Nb7! (if 13...cxb3 14.axb3 whites undeveloped knight proves useful, because the c3 pawn is defended) 14.a4 when compared to the Rubenstein system white's queen's knight could prove useful attacking the b5 pawn." Quote from Marin.

I still need to have a look at the games you mentioned.

20.c4 seems quite logical to me. Why did Alekseev&Akopian argue that it was blacks major mistake, what should he have played instead?
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez Chigorin 12. d5
Reply #4 - 05/19/10 at 15:41:40
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Last 12. d5 game is quite recent:

Alekseev,Evgeny (2700) - Akopian,Vl (2694) [C97]
FIDE GP Astrakhan RUS (7), 17.05.2010
1.e4 e5 2.Cf3 Cc6 3.Ab5 a6 4.Aa4 Cf6 5.0–0 Ae7 6.Te1 b5 7.Ab3 d6 8.c3 0–0 9.h3 Ca5 10.Ac2 c5 11.d4 Dc7 12.d5 Ad7 13.b3 Cb7 14.Cbd2 g6 15.Cf1 Ch5 16.Ah6 Cg7 17.g4 f6 18.Cg3 Cd8 19.Rh2 Cf7 20.Ae3 c4 21.Dd2 Cg5 22.Cxg5 fxg5 23.bxc4 Dxc4 24.Ab3 Dc8 25.c4 bxc4 26.Tec1 h5 27.Axc4 De8 28.Ae2 Tf4 29.f3 hxg4 30.hxg4 Ch5 31.gxh5 gxh5 32.Axf4 exf4 33.Cf5 Axf5 34.exf5 Af6 35.Tab1 g4 36.Tb7 De5 37.Dd3 Te8 38.De4 Dxe4 39.fxe4 Rf8 40.Rg2 1–0

In fact white never tried a4 event without 13...Rb8. Both players agreed that 20...c4 was black's major mistake.
The other main response to 12.d5 is 12...c4. I remember some great games for black in this line: Antunes-Granda Zuñiga and Sion Castro-Beliavsky. I'm at work now and i cannot search dor the games in megadatabase but i also recall a nice game of Aleksandrov with black.
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez Chigorin 12. d5
Reply #3 - 05/19/10 at 09:49:47
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I have researched 12.d5 now and I believe that objectively black is fine.

Marin provides a convincing recipe for black in his Spanish repertoire book with 12..Bd7 13.b3 Rb8! discouraging white from 14.a4 After that black should play in Rubenstein fashion.
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez Chigorin 12. d5
Reply #2 - 05/18/10 at 08:40:30
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I stumbled upon this thread while searching the forum and found it very interesting. That is why I am renewing it to find out what ought to be blacks response. Is there any major drawback with 12.d5 or is it just less accurate compared to the alternative?
  
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