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Modern Defence 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 c6 5 f4 b5 (Read 4715 times)

MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10777 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Modern Defence 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 c6 5 f4 b5 Reply #5 - 09/06/06 at 03:06:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	I really can't say I have figured out already one single question of your last post. But again it seems advisable to take a look at the Pirc proper first. 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 and again I am not satisfied with the Argentine/150-Attack 5.Qd2 b5 6.f3/6.Bd3. So I recommend 5.h3 Bg7 6.f4. When Black plays ...b5, White always has the choice between e5 and Bd3. I think this very attractive. In the Robatsch move order we get: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Be3 c6 5.f4 b5 a) 6.h3 The question is now, if Black can postpone ...Nf6 to his benefit; else it will become the Pirc. b) 6.Bd3 Nd7 7.Nf3 might be more precise, only playing h3 immediately after ....Nf6. I don't like an early Qd2 very much. This costs a valuable tempo, if White follows the well known plan from the GPA: Qd1-e1-h4, f5, Bh6, Ng5 and mate. From White's point of view the moves (after 5.f4) Nf3, Bd3 and 0-0 are necessary. The early ...b5 makes castling queenside hazardous. So why play 7.Qd2, as Speelman and McDonald recommend? These are general considerations. I have yet to back this up with concrete lines and that will take quite a long time. 5...Nd7 with the idea of an early ...e5 is another idea which I haven't investigated yet. Michael, please have mercy. I have not even finished the Ujtelky Defence (4.Be3 a6) yet.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1976 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: Modern Defence 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 c6 5 f4 b5 Reply #4 - 09/06/06 at 00:43:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks once again MNb. I’m still as confused by these positions as I’m fascinated. Here’s as far as I’ve got. (Please don’t feel any need to address all, or any, of these issues unless they’re interesting!) I can see that I’m going to have to acquire, somehow, a copy of The Ultimate Pirc – I’d be interested to know how many of my questions N&M address, and also whether in general these positions have been analysed or are relatively unexplored. (1) After 5 …b5 6 Nf3, I assume the immediate 6 …Nf6 is somewhat dubious for the obvious reason. But is this clearly so, or are things more complicated (as one might imagine if …Nd5 wins a tempo)? And what of 6 h3 Nf6? (2) On (5 …b5) 6 Bd3 Nd7, Speelman & McDonald give 7 Qd2!? Nb6 8 b3!? Nf6 9 Nf3 a6 (Granda--Kurajica) as +/=. Can Black improve? 7 …a6 8 Nf3 c5 has been seen, but 9 e5 has surely to be reckoned with. Norwood has won quickly with 7 …Nb6 8 b3 e5!?. There’s also 7 …Ngf6 8 Nf3 e5/b4, or here 8 h3 e5/0-0. I notice also that 6 Bd3 Qb6!? has been played with success. (3) 6 h3!? does well. How should Black handle the position? Maybe 6 …b4? H’mm. Finally (4) a radical question: what is the status of 5 …Nd7 relative to 5 …b5? Is there any reason it should be inferior? If not it might give Black new options (e.g. 6 Bd3 e5, or 6 Nf3 Ngf6) while rendering tries like 6 a3 and 6 e5 unlikely? It might also be a transpositional device for avoiding Granda’s line above, since White almost always plays 6 Nf3 and not 6 Bd3 (because of 6 …e5 presumably?).


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10777 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Modern Defence 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 c6 5 f4 b5 Reply #3 - 08/30/06 at 20:33:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	In that case you should pay attention to 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Bg7 6.f4 b5 7.Bd3 as well. Via the Robatsch 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 c6 5.f4 b5 6.Bd3 Nd7 7.Nf3 Black must know when to play ...Ngf6, to limit the strength of the obvious reply e5!. In the Pirc move order this is the key move to an advantage. I haven't figured out if and how Black can take benefit from postponing ...Nf6. Black can, if White plays the Argentine attack: 5.Qd2 b5 6.f3 (or 6.h4 h5 7.Nh3 Bxh3 8.Rxh3 Nd7 9.d5 b4) Nd7 7.h4 h5 8.Nh3 Nb6 9.Ng5 Rb8! which is even stronger than Nf6.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1976 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: Modern Defence 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 c6 5 f4 b5 Reply #2 - 08/29/06 at 15:28:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks for this MNb -- I'll take a look at that game and also at the h3 plan. I've no objection to playing ...Nf6! -- indeed my feeling is it often/usually needs to happen here quite soon ...


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10777 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Modern Defence 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 c6 5 f4 b5 Reply #1 - 08/29/06 at 02:40:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	Nunn/McNab by transposition give Svesjnikov-Tsesjkovsy, Moscow 1995: 6.Bd3 Nd7 7.Nf3. Quite often Black plays Nf6 at some stage, but I assume that's not what you are looking for. You should also look at 5.h3 b5 (Nd7) 6.f4.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1976 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Modern Defence 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 c6 5 f4 b5 08/29/06 at 00:14:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	I've stared long and hard at the position after 1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 Nc3 d6 4 Be3 c6 5 f4!? b5!?, but don't really feel I've grasped what's going on. Can anyone advise me on best play/strategy for both sides here (incl. any model games), esp. on if+when Black should play ...Nb6 and/or ...b4, and on how the position compares/connects with, say, the pseudo-Austrian 4 f4 a6? It's easy to think Black should prefer ...a6 to ...c6 if ...c5 is to follow, but his results have been surprisingly good in this line depending on which database you look at -- maybe ...c6 usefully supports the d5-square if e5/...Nd5 occurs?


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