I rather like the chaotic format of the games conducted on this board.
I don't think posting a finished correspondance game here will prove anything at all.
We might be getting closer to the truth if everyone here has the possibility of  voicing his thoughts at each move. Plus it would give MNb and myself the chance to fight for the same cause once more ... 

While we wait for Markovich or someone else to pick up the gauntlet, here is a recap of the options Black can choose from after 1. d4 e6 ; 2. c4 Bb4+ ; 3. Ktc3 :

- 3. ...f5 : perhaps objectively best. As MNb has phrased it, Black tries to prove he has an "improved NID"
- 3. ...b6 : transposing to the fighting English Defence, while avoiding the most critical lines is also attractive option.
- 3. ...Ktc6 : the UD Defence. Here I am a bit biased of course. Testing the worth of my creation is very tempting to me.
- 3. ...c5 : As pointed out by Marin Fan, Black can try to transpose to the Nimzo while avoiding some of the most unpleasant answers, or he can keep the game in independant territory with moves such as ...f5 or ...Kte7 or simply by delaying ...Ktf6 further.
- 3. ...e5 : Probably won't be going for this one! But this "delayed Budapest", intending 4. de Ktc6 ; 5. Ktf3 Ktge7 intending ...Ktg6, ...Qe7, ...0-0 and ...Re8 is still rather intriguing.

Dear MNb,

 Thx for the games. It is interesting to note that in the two of his that you provided, Gulko willingly opted for the development of his Q's Knight to -c6, thus (unwittingly?) transposing to the UD Defence when he could have delayed it or preferred ...Ktbd7.

It all reminds me of the very first standard game I played with this system :
1. d4 e6 ; 2. c4 Ktc6 ; 3. Ktc3 Bb4 ; 4. e3 f5 ; 5. Ktf3 Bxc3+ (After this game I decided I preferred to delay the capture) ; 6. bc d6 ; 7. Ba3!? b6 ; 8. Bd3 e5 ; 9. e4 [9. c5!? bc (9. ...e4? ; 10. Bb5) ; 10. dc (10. Bb5!?) d5] Ktf6 ; 10. Qe2 (10. Qc2 is better) 0-0 ; 11. 0-0?! (for better or worse White should have gone for the messy 11. de fe) Re8 ; 12. d5 (once Black manages to force this, he has a won game) Ktb8 (Black would prefer ...Kte7-g6 to Ktb8-d7-f8-g6, but 12. ...Kte7? allows ef when most of Black's advantage disappears) ; 13. 0-0 f4
I don't exactly recall the rest. White swiftly self-mated, but he would slowly have been done over on the Kingside in any case.

                                                               Regards,
                                                                     UD

Beljavsky,A (2560) - Gulko,B (2530) [A85]
USSR Cup T Tbilisi, 1976
1.d4 e6 2.c4 Bb4+ 3.Nc3 f5 4.g3 Nf6 5.Bg2 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 d6 7.Nf3 0–0 8.0–0 Nc6 9.d5 Na5 10.dxe6 Bxe6 11.Nd4 Bxc4 12.Nxf5 Qd7 13.Ne3 Be6 14.c4 Rae8 15.Qd4 Bh3 16.Bd5+ Kh8 17.Rd1 Nc6 18.Qh4 Ne7 19.Bh1 c5 20.Bb2 Ng6 21.Qg5 Ne4 22.Bxe4 Rxe4 23.Qh6 Rf7 24.Rd3 Kg8 25.Qh5 Ne5 26.Bxe5 Rxe5 27.Qh4 Bf5 28.Rd2 Re4 29.Qh5 Rxe3 30.fxe3 Qe7 31.e4 Bxe4 32.Rf1 Bg6 33.Rxf7 Qe3+ 34.Rf2 Bxh5 35.Rxd6 h6 0–1

White probably can maintain equality (!) with 9.c5 dxc5 10.Ba3.


Flohr,S - Botvinnik,M [A85]
Moscow/Leningrad m Leningrad (4), 1933
1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.g3 Bb4 5.Bd2 0–0 6.Bg2 d6 7.Nf3 Nbd7 8.0–0 Bxc3 9.Bxc3 Ne4 10.Qc2 Qe7 11.Rfd1 Nxc3 12.Qxc3 Nf6 13.Ne1 e5 14.dxe5 dxe5 15.Rd2 e4 16.Rad1 Be6 17.Nc2 Rad8 18.Ne3 Rxd2 19.Rxd2 g6 20.Bf1 Rd8 21.Rxd8+ Qxd8 22.Nc2 ½–½


Gurevich,M (2667) - Gulko,B (2643) [A84]
North Sea Cup–15 Esbjerg (3), 09.07.2000
1.d4 e6 2.c4 Bb4+ 3.Nc3 f5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Bd3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 d6 7.Qc2 0–0 8.Nf3 Nc6 9.Ba3 Qe7 10.c5 b6 11.cxd6 cxd6 12.0–0 Bb7 13.Be2 Rac8 14.Rac1 Na5 15.Nd2 Ne4 16.c4 Nxd2 17.Qxd2 e5 18.dxe5 Qxe5 19.Rfd1 Qe6 20.Bf1 Rfd8 21.Qb4 Rc5 22.Qe1 Rcc8 23.Qb4 Rc5 24.Qe1 Rcc8 25.Qb4 ½–½


Taylor,T (2460) - Bellin,R (2420) [A85]
Eerbeek (6), 1978
1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e3 Bb4 5.f3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 c5 7.Bd3 d6 8.Ne2 Nc6 9.0–0 e5 10.Bd2 0–0 11.Kh1 Kh8 12.Be1 Qe8 13.Bf2 b6 14.Rg1 Na5 15.Nc1 e4 16.Be2 Ba6 17.Nb3 Nxc4 18.Qf1 Qa4 19.h3 Nd5 20.Qc1 Rac8 21.f4 cxd4 22.Nxd4 Ncxe3 23.Ne6 Bxe2 24.Nxf8 Nc2 25.Ne6 e3 26.Bg3 Nxa1 27.Qxa1 Qc4 28.Ng5 Kg8 29.Rc1 Nxf4 30.Qb2 Nd3 31.Qxe2 Nxc1 32.Qxe3 Nd3 33.Bxd6 h6 34.Nf3 Qe4 35.Qd2 Re8 36.Qc2 f4 37.Qb3+ Qe6 38.Qa3 a5 39.Qa4 g5 40.Nd4 Qe1+ 0–1


It is true, that Black does not need to play ...Bxc3+ voluntarily, but it is also true, that it is justified here. Compared to the NID Black does not have to play ...Ne8 before ...f5.
Avoiding the doubled pawns with either Bd2, Qb3 or Qc2 usually does not lead to a White advantage, because Black has full control of square e4.

As I usually play my bishop to e7 in the Dutch, I am not an expert. But it is my impression that Black plays an improved version of the NID here.

[quote author=Uberdeker link=1157021935/0#12 date=1159117397][quote author=Markovich link=1157021935/0#9 date=1158929934]
As you will know, after 1. d4 Nf6  2. c4 e6  3. Nc3, 4. f3 is the stock answer to 3...b6. [/quote]

The most effective punishment is simply 4. e4. Now 4. ...Bb7 ; 5. Bd3 Bb4 ; 6. Qe2 leaves the options of f4 and/or Ktf3 open, preceded or not with Bg5 and/or e5. White has an overwhelming advantage. 
I must say I find your taste for playing f3 in these positions where the immediate e4 is possible rather puzzling.
Perhaps you were thinking of the slightly less dubious "Accelerated Queen's Indian" 1. d4 Ktf6 ; 2. c4 b6?! ; 3. Ktc3 Bb7. Here, 4. f3 is indeed one of the best answers and good for a nice advantage. The other method of preparing e4 is 4. Qc2 (chosen in a game Sämisch-Nimzowitsch which continued 4. ...Ktc6?! ; 5. d5?! if I remember correctly) and is also good for White.
Once again if we compare to the English Defence 1. d4 e6 ; 2. c4 b6 ; 3. e4 Bb7 ; 4. Qc2 Qh4 and 4. Ktc3 Bb4 ; 5. Qc2 Qh4, we can see the advantages of not having played ...Ktf6. Instead of cramping Black's game, White's centre is merely a fragile target. The possibilty of playing ...Qh4, ...f5, and even ...Kte7 completely changes the assessment of these lines.

Here are the critical lines of the English Defence that Black avoids with the move-order 1. d4 e6 ; 2. c4 Bb4+ ; 3. Ktc3 b6 :
- 1. d4 e6 ; 2. c4 b6 ; 3. e4 Bb7 ; 4. Bd3
- 1. c4 b6 ; 2. Ktc3 Bb7 ; 3. e4 e6 ; 4. Ktf3
- 1. d4 e6 ; 2. c4 b6 ; 3. a3/ 1. c4 b6 ; 2. d4 Bb7 ; 3. a3

I don't think any of the lines left at White's disposal are liable to offer the slightest edge.   
[/quote]

I'm not particularly enthusiastic for f2-f3. Still, while I must bow again to your theoretical knowledge, I probably will put my pawn on f3 next time the square is vacant, I have c4, d4 and Nc3, and someone plays ...b6.   I admit I may indeed play e4 first if given the chance.

But the thread is about 1...e6 2. c4 Bb4+, and I do maintain my view that White is still White after 1. d4 e6  2. c4 Bb4+  3. Nc3.  I have no particularly theoretical knowledge of the positions that arise from 3...b3 or 3...f5, but I very much doubt that either one is a better move than 3...Nf6, where White does (in my view) retain the advantage of the first move.   

I am no great believer in statistics, but I find 69 games in my data base with 3. Nc3 f5  4. e3, and White scored 65%.  In the 41 games that went 4...Nf6 5. Bd3 Bxc3+, which I believe to be the critical path, White scored 54%.   

White also has 4. Nf3.  Call me unsophisticated, but pawns on c4, d4, knights on c3, f3 looks like pretty good chess to me.  Indeed, White scored 56% in 200 games that began 3. Nc3 f5 4. Nf3 Nf6  5. Qb3.

I don't know what objectively is the best method of meeting 2...e6  3. c4 Bb4+, and I'm sure that 4. Bd2 is a good move, but it's very hard for me to believe that a straightforward move like 4. Nc3 leads to easy equality for Black, not matter what his next move is.

[quote author=Markovich link=1157021935/0#9 date=1158929934]
As you will know, after 1. d4 Nf6  2. c4 e6  3. Nc3, 4. f3 is the stock answer to 3...b6. [/quote]

The most effective punishment is simply 4. e4. Now 4. ...Bb7 ; 5. Bd3 Bb4 ; 6. Qe2 leaves the options of f4 and/or Ktf3 open, preceded or not with Bg5 and/or e5. White has an overwhelming advantage. 
I must say I find your taste for playing f3 in these positions where the immediate e4 is possible rather puzzling.
Perhaps you were thinking of the slightly less dubious "Accelerated Queen's Indian" 1. d4 Ktf6 ; 2. c4 b6?! ; 3. Ktc3 Bb7. Here, 4. f3 is indeed one of the best answers and good for a nice advantage. The other method of preparing e4 is 4. Qc2 (chosen in a game Sämisch-Nimzowitsch which continued 4. ...Ktc6?! ; 5. d5?! if I remember correctly) and is also good for White.
Once again if we compare to the English Defence 1. d4 e6 ; 2. c4 b6 ; 3. e4 Bb7 ; 4. Qc2 Qh4 and 4. Ktc3 Bb4 ; 5. Qc2 Qh4, we can see the advantages of not having played ...Ktf6. Instead of cramping Black's game, White's centre is merely a fragile target. The possibilty of playing ...Qh4, ...f5, and even ...Kte7 completely changes the assessment of these lines.

Here are the critical lines of the English Defence that Black avoids with the move-order 1. d4 e6 ; 2. c4 Bb4+ ; 3. Ktc3 b6 :
- 1. d4 e6 ; 2. c4 b6 ; 3. e4 Bb7 ; 4. Bd3
- 1. c4 b6 ; 2. Ktc3 Bb7 ; 3. e4 e6 ; 4. Ktf3
- 1. d4 e6 ; 2. c4 b6 ; 3. a3/ 1. c4 b6 ; 2. d4 Bb7 ; 3. a3

I don't think any of the lines left at White's disposal are liable to offer the slightest edge.  

1.d4 e6 2.c4 Bb4+ 3.Nc3 f5 4.e3/4.g3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 Nf6 are good versions of the Dutch:
a) 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.g3 e6 4.Bg2 Bb4+ 5.Nc3?! is weaker than both 5.Bd2 and 5.Nd2.
b) 1.d4 f5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 is not White's best either. Here Black can transpose to the main lines of the Rubinstein Variation with 4...Nf6.
Doubling White's c-pawns is also considered a great achievement for Black in the Bb4 variations of the Dutch.

[quote author=Markovich link=1157021935/0#7 date=1158858428]
3. ...d5  4. a3 (or perhaps 4. e3 followed by a2-a3) is good for White, it would seem. [/quote]

I agree.

[quote] So is 3...b6  4. f3. [/quote]

I disagree. After 4. ...Bb7 ; 5. e4 we have transposed to a sideline of the English Defence. Now 5. ...Qh4+, 5. ...e5 and 5. ...Kte7 all give Black fully satisfactory play. Only Miles' gambit treatment 5. ...f5 is unsound. But Black can also try and take advantage of the move-order, for example with 4. ...e5!? or simply 4. ...f5

[quote] That leaves 3. ...f5.  Is THAT what Black is supposed to play if he wants to avoid the Nimzo?  Is it good?  White could try 4. f3 there as well. [/quote]

Yes, this is a nice achievement for Black. I think he has an excellent position. White can't get e4 in anyway after 4. ...Ktf6, so I don't think 4. f3 is a good idea, especially since 4. ...c5!? ; 5. d5? Qh4+ hangs the c-pawn. 
Black can also delay ...f5 with 3. ...Ktc6 which transposes to the UD Defence, but Black's earlier move-order doesn't make much sense if that's what he was aiming for.

All these considerations can lead us to reject 3. ...Ktc3, especially since the alternatives give White good chances for a slight edge.


P.S. Everyone seems to have their favorite "Eingorn specialty". I myself would be interested to read what he has to say on 1. e4 e6 ; 2. d4 d5 ; 3. Ktc3 h6 and 3. Ktd2 h6/a6/Be7.

Hello,

Just been browsing Viacheslav Eingorn's book CREATIVE CHESS OPENING PREPARATION. There is a section about this opening, mostly with 3... a5,  called "History of a variation". He consider's 

1d4 e6 ; 2. c4 Bb4 ; 3. Bd2 a5 ; 4. e4 d5 "Black should not have much trouble equalising", looks at a game of his from '83.

1.d4 e6 2.c4 Bb4+ 3.Bd2 a5 4.Nc3 lines are shown last, usually idicating most critical.

Anyway there are a few interesting idea's in this chapter, and the book in general looks quite good.

Bye John S