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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Alekhine as a club weapon (Read 37824 times)
lg
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #18 - 09/22/06 at 12:21:23
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sorry

no intention of asking you to repost ALL of your previous posts.
I was refering to your post on this line (15 Qd2) since I thought that by clicking
on the url you have included in a previous post, one would be able to get it.
I will try to keep on the discussion by presenting a few lines on 20 ... exd as well as on 20 ... Bc5 (which appear to give some funny lines).

lg
  
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #17 - 09/22/06 at 12:12:52
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lg wrote on 09/22/06 at 10:29:14:
To Markovich

i) Thanks! 14 ... Qd7 is really weak. No more arguments from my side!
ii) Started to look at your 15 Qd2 variation and here are a few questions

Could you repost the analysis you did before since clicking on the link of a previous post only gives
(to me) a diagram and not your analysis
In fact, after 20 c6 you say 20 ... Bd6 does not appear to be good. Can you provide a few lines, since
to me it appears playable?
And what about 20 ... exd ? Is it in your analysis?
I also dont see too much difference in 20 ... Bh6 and Bh6 after 20 ... Kb8 since thetwo lines may transpose and
in both cases White gets the black square bishop that can hit a7 and c7 and Black gets the white squared
bishop that cannot defend such squares.
Perhaps you should also analyse  15 ... Nxd4 (after 15 Qd2) since I dont see an immediate loss to Black
lg


Well, I'm laying out a great deal of analysis on this board, and with the greatest respect, I think I will just ask you to scroll down through the board history and find it all, rather than reposting it.  Practically every recent Alekhine thread has my contribution.  If I can find the time, I'll post some links here to previous discussions.   

Maybe I will just start Hard Chess again and post a coherent set of Alekhine ideas.

You ask why 20...Kb8?  From the linked diagram, 20...Bh6  21. Bxh6 Qxd4+  22. Kh1 Qxd3  23. Qa5 Kb8  24. Rac1 and Black can't play 24...Rd7.  20...Kb8! is designed to avoid this little problem, waiting for 21. bxc7 before playing ...Bh6.  Clearly, the king move is constructive, though maybe I'm wrong that it is the best move.  For example, after 20...Kb8 White has 21. Rac1. After that I considered 21...Ba3 (perhaps there is something else?)  22. Rc4 e4 and now:

(1)  23. Qa5 exd3  24. Ra4 a6  25. bxa6 Qxa5  26. Rxa5 Bc5! and Black's game appears to be playable after 27. Rxc5 b6 or 27. dxc5 bxc6  28. Rb1+ Ka8.

(2)  23. Ra4 exd3  24. Rxa3 (24. Qa5 transposes) 24...Qxb5 and though the position is very complicated, I suspect Black has enough counterplay.

(3)  23. Be2 Qxb5 looks OK for Black.

I have shared several highly specific ideas in this and some other Alekhine variations, not only on this thread, without hearing much back, and I think that for the time being I'll post more such ideas only in reaction to specific comments that I hear in return.  Particularly with regard to 20...exd I suggest you analyze it yourself and post your ideas here.

Best, Markovich
  

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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #16 - 09/22/06 at 10:29:14
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To Markovich

i) Thanks! 14 ... Qd7 is really weak. No more arguments from my side!
ii) Started to look at your 15 Qd2 variation and here are a few questions

Could you repost the analysis you did before since clicking on the link of a previous post only gives
(to me) a diagram and not your analysis
In fact, after 20 c6 you say 20 ... Bd6 does not appear to be good. Can you provide a few lines, since
to me it appears playable?
And what about 20 ... exd ? Is it in your analysis?
I also dont see too much difference in 20 ... Bh6 and Bh6 after 20 ... Kb8 since thetwo lines may transpose and
in both cases White gets the black square bishop that can hit a7 and c7 and Black gets the white squared
bishop that cannot defend such squares.
Perhaps you should also analyse  15 ... Nxd4 (after 15 Qd2) since I dont see an immediate loss to Black
lg
  
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #15 - 09/21/06 at 22:38:31
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lg wrote on 09/20/06 at 10:55:50:
Markovich analysis on the 9...Q7 is quite interesting.
Here are two queries:
i) Markovish says "I believe black is Ok after 15 Qb3 Nxd4". However, this appears to be
the critical line for Black according with the most recent Alekhine books, based on a game by
Minasian - Donchenko. What is the proposed improvement for Black on this game?
ii) It appears to me that after Qd2 (which appears to be a good idea) the black queen is
harassed due to being located in e4. After Bd3, the queen goes to d5, but that square appears to
be better occupied by a knight. The game Moser-Khmelevsky gives a different variation
14 ...   Qd7 (the queen goes back and frees the d5 square instead of going to e4)
15 Qa4 Kb8
16 Rfd1 Ne7
17 b5 Nd5 (and the knight appers to quite well located on this square)
Any comments




In Minasian-Donchenko, USSR 1988, 15. Qb3 Nxd4  16. Nxd4 Bxe2  17. Nxe2 Rd3  18. Qa4 Qxe6+  19. Kh1 Qxe2  20. Qxa7 Rd2  21. Qa8+ Kd7  22. Qxb7, and now instead of 22...Be7 as played, Black has 22...f5!? after which  23. exf6 gxf6  24. Rae1 Qc4  25. Rxf6 Be7 appears to leave White struggling to justify his sacrificed piece.   

Best in reply to 22...f5!? appears to be 23. Rfe1 (not 23. Rae1? Qc4 and soon ...Qd5; also obviously not 23. Rg1? Qxe5) 23...Qf2 (23...Qc4?  24. Red1)  and now:

(1) 24. Rf1 Qe2 appears to draw; 
(2) 24. Red1?! Ke8!  25. Rxd2 Rxd2  26. Qxc7 Qd7  27. Qb8+ Kf7 followed by ...Rg8 and I suspect the pawns are not enough, given White's back rank problem; 
(3) still worse 24. Rfd1?! Ke8!;
(4) 24. Rg1?! Bxc5!; or
(5) 24. c6+ Ke8  25. Rg1 Kf7  26. Qxc7+ Be7  27. b5 and Black has various tries, but I suspect most to the point is 27...h5!  28. b6 h4  29. h3 (29. b7? h3 and White gets mated) 29...Rhd8  30. Raf1 (30. b7 R8d3 and White again is mated) 30...Qc5 and it's wild, but I think White's prospects of making a second queen aren't enough to counterbalance Black's powerful attack.  E.g., once again, 31. b7 R8d3.

Also, besides 22...f5, 22...f6 may be worth considering.  I would be very curious to hear anyone's thoughts on any of this. 

As to Moser-Kmelevsky, 14...Qd7?  15. Qa4 Kb8, and now 16. b5 Ne7 (16...Nxd4 is hopeless)  17. d5! utterly refutes Black's conception.
« Last Edit: 09/22/06 at 01:27:45 by Markovich »  

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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #14 - 09/21/06 at 10:34:44
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At the club level you may see a lot of 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 when Black's objectively best reply is probably transposing to a Vienna Game with 2...e5 although 2...d5, which seems to be more popular with most Alekhine players, is also perfectly acceptable if you want to avoid Open Game positions.
  

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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #13 - 09/20/06 at 16:44:21
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Sorry for the typos

I wanted to say

i) "In my opinion 12 ... a5 allows ..."
ii) "Anyway, Black could allow 13 a5 ..."

Of course, I will look into your 15 Qd2 analysis. It look sinteresting and I
am interested on the 9....Qd7 line

lg
  
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #12 - 09/20/06 at 16:22:44
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lg wrote on 09/20/06 at 14:25:57:
To Markovich

Nothinga gainst chess philosophy. That is why general lines are thought of (no?).

I think that 11... f6 attempts to disrupt white's center as 11 .... Bg4 does.
Unfortunately, 11... f6 appears to be bad because black cannot play the "normal"
moves due to several tatical considerations involving
the bad position of the king in c8. 
That is why 11  ...Kb8 tries to overcome this.
However, I agree with you. I really dont like to play Black's position after 12 a4.
In my opinion 12 ... >>15<< allows (at least, it can be worse) 13 d5 and then BxN forcing Black
to take with the c pawn. If you then change pieces you obtain an apparently worse ending.
However, Miles was a good player with lots of good ideas and I would like to see what he would
have played against 12 a4.
Any way, Black could allow >>15<< by playing something like (after 12 a4)
12 .... f6 (attacking white's center and instead of Bb4)
13 a5 Nc8 (by the way, there are several lines on the 11... f6 where Black plays Kb8 to make c8
empty for the Knight)
14 a6 b6
and now, if White, plays 15 exf then 15 .... gxf allowing Black to play Qg7 and Rg8, etc.

Concerning the Moser-Khmelevsky game, I agree with you,. Black may spend some time putting
the Knight in d5 but Black was Ok on that game.

By the way, your past comments (here and in other threads) of the 4PA
are quite interesting

lg


Thanks.  I have marked with >><< places in your post where "15" appears to stand for something, I don't know what.

You agree with me that Kmelevsky's idea smells bad, but he was OK in the game?  Hmm.  Well, as I said, I'll look and come back with specifics.

I appreciate your kind words, and since you appear to be a serious player, I would appreciate your comments on my analysis, given above, of 15. Qd2.  I consider this to be the most critical line after ...0-0-0 (again, I will come back with my ideas about 15. Qb3).
  

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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #11 - 09/20/06 at 14:25:57
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To Markovich

Nothinga gainst chess philosophy. That is why general lines are thought of (no?).

I think that 11... f6 attempts to disrupt white's center as 11 .... Bg4 does.
Unfortunately, 11... f6 appears to be bad because black cannot play the "normal"
moves due to several tatical considerations involving
the bad position of the king in c8. 
That is why 11  ...Kb8 tries to overcome this.
However, I agree with you. I really dont like to play Black's position after 12 a4.
In my opinion 12 ... 15 allows (at least, it can be worse) 13 d5 and then BxN forcing Black
to take with the c pawn. If you then change pieces you obtain an apparently worse ending.
However, Miles was a good player with lots of good ideas and I would like to see what he would
have played against 12 a4.
Any way, Black could allow 15 by playing something like (after 12 a4)
12 .... f6 (attacking white's center and instead of Bb4)
13 a5 Nc8 (by the way, there are several lines on the 11... f6 where Black plays Kb8 to make c8
empty for the Knight)
14 a6 b6
and now, if White, plays 15 exf then 15 .... gxf allowing Black to play Qg7 and Rg8, etc.

Concerning the Moser-Khmelevsky game, I agree with you,. Black may spend some time putting
the Knight in d5 but Black was Ok on that game.

By the way, your past comments (here and in other threads) of the 4PA
are quite interesting

lg
  
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #10 - 09/20/06 at 13:34:36
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lg wrote on 09/20/06 at 10:55:50:
Markovich analysis on the 9...Q7 is quite interesting.
Here are two queries:
i) Markovish says "I believe black is Ok after 15 Qb3 Nxd4". However, this appears to be
the critical line for Black according with the most recent Alekhine books, based on a game by
Minasian - Donchenko. What is the proposed improvement for Black on this game?
ii) It appears to me that after Qd2 (which appears to be a good idea) the black queen is
harassed due to being located in e4. After Bd3, the queen goes to d5, but that square appears to
be better occupied by a knight. The game Moser-Khmelevsky gives a different variation
14 ...   Qd7 (the queen goes back and frees the d5 square instead of going to e4)
15 Qa4 Kb8
16 Rfd1 Ne7
17 b5 Nd5 (and the knight appers to quite well located on this square)
Any comments




Thanks for this idea.  I wasn't aware of this game.  I'll look at it and come back with something concrete (also concerning 15. Qb3).   

For the time being, I'll confine myself to chess philosophy.  It seems to me that ...0-0-0 can only be justified by very rapid and hopefully effective play against White's center.  Black can't afford to dither while White launches a pawn storm.  That's why 11...Bg4 is not only the best move, but the necessary move (for example, after Miles's 11...Kb8, Black just gets wiped out by 12. a4!, and if 12...Bb4 [12...a5?!] then 13. a5!).  14...Qe4 is played in the same spirit.  While I agree that d5 is a splendid square for a knight, this transfer appears to abandon the all-important (as I claim) central-pawn-destroying imperative in favor of a blockading strategy.  How can this be successful with Black's queenside lying exposed?   

Moreover, three tempi is a great investment just to occupy this nice square.  That's the sort of thing I am happy to do in closed positions, but this position isn't closed.  In the mean time, the pawn storm accelerates.  Does Black have any real hope of blockading the queenside?

Maybe my understanding of the position after ...0-0-0, summarized above, is fundamentally incorect.
  

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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #9 - 09/20/06 at 10:55:50
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Markovich analysis on the 9...Q7 is quite interesting.
Here are two queries:
i) Markovish says "I believe black is Ok after 15 Qb3 Nxd4". However, this appears to be
the critical line for Black according with the most recent Alekhine books, based on a game by
Minasian - Donchenko. What is the proposed improvement for Black on this game?
ii) It appears to me that after Qd2 (which appears to be a good idea) the black queen is
harassed due to being located in e4. After Bd3, the queen goes to d5, but that square appears to
be better occupied by a knight. The game Moser-Khmelevsky gives a different variation
14 ...   Qd7 (the queen goes back and frees the d5 square instead of going to e4)
15 Qa4 Kb8
16 Rfd1 Ne7
17 b5 Nd5 (and the knight appers to quite well located on this square)
Any comments


  
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #8 - 09/18/06 at 16:44:48
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IMJohnCox wrote on 09/18/06 at 16:24:39:
I thought Luther had reluctantly concluded that 6…c5 simply loses after 10 d6, following his games with Bryson and someone else which I gave in the book, in which it seems he was just lost at one point (some well-timed Bxa7 move. In fact I think it might have been tracke who pointed this out before, so maybe he’ll confirm).

Any defence is theoretical at a high level, but equally at a club level Black will do fine with any defence so long as he has a grasp of the basic ideas, would be my take. The opening where you are most vulnerable to being blown away by someone who knows more theory than you at a sub-1800 level is surely 1…e5; next choice 1…c5. Whether the Alekhine is good for one’s chess development I don’t feel able to express an opinion about; again it is not clear to me that it matters for this purpose what openings you play, although I know some with more experience than me feel differently (although not always alike).


I should have mentioned that your book is an excellent place to start out if anyone does take up this defense; I found it very useful.  It appears though that the foundations of 9...Be7 have cracked somewhat since publication.
  

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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #7 - 09/18/06 at 16:24:39
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I thought Luther had reluctantly concluded that 6…c5 simply loses after 10 d6, following his games with Bryson and someone else which I gave in the book, in which it seems he was just lost at one point (some well-timed Bxa7 move. In fact I think it might have been tracke who pointed this out before, so maybe he’ll confirm).

Any defence is theoretical at a high level, but equally at a club level Black will do fine with any defence so long as he has a grasp of the basic ideas, would be my take. The opening where you are most vulnerable to being blown away by someone who knows more theory than you at a sub-1800 level is surely 1…e5; next choice 1…c5. Whether the Alekhine is good for one’s chess development I don’t feel able to express an opinion about; again it is not clear to me that it matters for this purpose what openings you play, although I know some with more experience than me feel differently (although not always alike).
  
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #6 - 09/18/06 at 16:14:05
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tracke wrote on 09/18/06 at 15:25:02:
In my opinion Alekhine can be a good second and surprise weapon but not a good first defence to 1e4.
On a 1700++ level you can learn much about pawn structures and dynamic play.
On a 2100++ level many white players know what to do (especially when directly prepared for you!)
and then Black has a hard time to defend += positions though he may hold against every variation.

I agree with Markovich that from a certain level this defence is very theoretical ! If White is willing to learn the theory of the sharp (and good!) theoretical recommendations in 4Pawns, Exchange or 4Nf3 then Black must learn much theory, too, simply to survive!

I worked quite a lot about the 4Pawns and in my opinion 9...Be7 is the one and only sound system, anything else will be punished by a strong and booked player. With 9...Be7 10.Be2 Black has more or less equal positions, but Black must be well prepared for 10.d5?! what is really a mess (maybe Black is slightly better, maybe White has a perpetual somewhere at move ~35).

For a very long time I used the Alekhine (4.Nf3 g6) as my second weapon against 1e4 (first choice: Caro-Kann) and I scored very well (~60% as Black, but ~90% when playing white. Tip: Don´t play Alekhine against 1e4 players who play Alekhine on their own!!).
One year ago I decided to give up the regular use of Alekhine (and to concentrate on C-K, sometimes experimenting with 1...e5 -> Berlin, but also generally using less time for chess!) . One concrete point was that my older systems against 4Pawns (9...Bg4?!, 9...Qd7?!, 6...c5??!) proved unsound and it looked easier to learn 1...e5 than to prepare 9...Be7 10.d5 for higher levels)

tracke  Smiley

@MNb: Of course I still play 1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 Nf6!=  Wink


If 9...Be7 is the only sound system versus the 4 pawns, then Black indeed does have a mountain of theory to learn.  I recently purchased Thomas Luther's ChessBase lectures on the Alekhine (I know just enough chess German to be able to understand him), and I notice that he recommends (and has played) 5...c5.  That, of course, is also quite theoretical, but at present I don't trust it.

I hope I will be permitted to stray somewhat offtopic here and ask you if you think Black's position is tenable after 9...Be7 10. d5 exd5  11. exd5 Nb4  12. Qf3 c5  13. dxc6 bxc6  14. Be2.

Another offtopic issue that I can't resist raising is that I'm not sure that 9...Qd7 is unsound.  9...Qd7  10. Be2 0-0-0  11. 0-0 Bg4  12. c5 Nd5  13. Nxd5 Qxd5  14. b4 Qe4  15. Qd2 (I believe that Black is O.K. in the complications that arise after 15. Qb3 Nxd4) 15...f6  16. Bd3 Qd5  17. exf6 gxf6  18. b5 Ne5  19. Nxe5 fxe5  20. c6 (20. b6 Bxc5!  21. bxc7 Rd7  22. Bb5 exd4  23. Bxd7+ Qxd7! is unclear but I believe Black has compensation for the exchange in his mobile pawns and his two active bishops) brings up a critical position that I've discussed before on this board.   

<img src="http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.php?fen=2kr1b1r/ppp4p/2P1p3/1P1q..." alt="" title="" border="0" />

(What html magic is necessary to get this image to display in line?!)

I came to the conclusion that Black's attack comes in second after 20...e4, ...Bd6 and so forth.  Also 20...Bh6  21. Bxh6 Qxd4+  22. Kh1 Qxd3  23. Qa5 is good for White.  But lately it seems to me that 20...Kb8!? holds out hope of strong Black counterplay, e.g. 21. cxb7 Bh6! (only now) 22. Bxh6 Qxd4+ and so forth.  White's advantage is not so unambiguous in this, and in closely related alternative lines, in view the great difficulty of playing major pieces plus opposite-colored bishops with no particular initiative and an insecure king.
  

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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #5 - 09/18/06 at 15:25:02
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In my opinion Alekhine can be a good second and surprise weapon but not a good first defence to 1e4.
On a 1700++ level you can learn much about pawn structures and dynamic play.
On a 2100++ level many white players know what to do (especially when directly prepared for you!)
and then Black has a hard time to defend += positions though he may hold against every variation.

I agree with Markovich that from a certain level this defence is very theoretical ! If White is willing to learn the theory of the sharp (and good!) theoretical recommendations in 4Pawns, Exchange or 4Nf3 then Black must learn much theory, too, simply to survive!

I worked quite a lot about the 4Pawns and in my opinion 9...Be7 is the one and only sound system, anything else will be punished by a strong and booked player. With 9...Be7 10.Be2 Black has more or less equal positions, but Black must be well prepared for 10.d5?! what is really a mess (maybe Black is slightly better, maybe White has a perpetual somewhere at move ~35).

For a very long time I used the Alekhine (4.Nf3 g6) as my second weapon against 1e4 (first choice: Caro-Kann) and I scored very well (~60% as Black, but ~90% when playing white. Tip: Don´t play Alekhine against 1e4 players who play Alekhine on their own!!).
One year ago I decided to give up the regular use of Alekhine (and to concentrate on C-K, sometimes experimenting with 1...e5 -> Berlin, but also generally using less time for chess!) . One concrete point was that my older systems against 4Pawns (9...Bg4?!, 9...Qd7?!, 6...c5??!) proved unsound and it looked easier to learn 1...e5 than to prepare 9...Be7 10.d5 for higher levels)

tracke  Smiley

@MNb: Of course I still play 1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 Nf6!=  Wink
  
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #4 - 09/18/06 at 12:11:49
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There are decent choices in the four pawns and chase variations which (partly) avoid sharp play.

Four pawns:
1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.c4 Nb6 5.f4 dxe5 6.fxe5 Nc6 7.Be3 Bf5 8.Nc3 e6 9.Nf3 Bg4!?

Chase variation:
1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.c4 Nb6 4.c5 Nd5 5.Bc4 e6 6.Nc3 c6!?

In the Nf3-line, dxe5 and c6 gives decent play without much theoretical knowledge needed.

Black can of course treat these lines more aggressively and more theoretically.

  

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