Willempie wrote on 10/06/06 at 06:52:58:


Fear not Willempie, if your analysis is interesting I am sure many have already cut and pasted into their Word Processor or copied it into a Chessbase file. Lack of responses does not neccessarily reflect negatively on you, a better indication of public interest in a thread would probably be how many views it has gotten.

Toppy

Quote:


Start or contribute to a BDG thread and you wouldn't have any of these problems

Tops

Markovich

Of course we can collaborate "privately". Just send me you email as you have said.

Note, however, that the fact that no one else is contributing may indicate several things:
i) what we discussing is rubish
ii) no time to look at it
(this happens to me with your previous analysis (and someone else) on teh 4PA line with
9...Be7 and later one with White playing Gh5 instead of Qg4 (based on a game by Filipenko and Glazourov which I still remeber when it cone out). i simply did not hav etime to look and 
contribute by doind some analysis but it was important to me knowing about it, because
if I want to examine to those lines, I will strat with the analysis on this forum. So keep in mind
that all of our previous discussion (mostly your previous posts) may be interesting now, or later,
to someone
iii) no interest. this may happen for several reasons - people playing different lines or even
people more interested in more general lines that may be played in normal club competition
iv) other

lg

To Markovich

To let you know I found in www.chesslive.de, the game Kolek - Bazela, 2001
Slovakia. Following

"(For the benefit of others, 1. e4 Nf5  2. e5 Nd5  3. d4 d6  4. c4 Nb6  5. f4 dxe4  6. fxe4 Nc6  7. Be3 Bf5  8. Nc3 e6  9. Nf3 Qd7  10. Be2 0-0-0  11. 0-0 Bg4  12. c5 Nd5  13. Nxd5 Qxd5  14. b4 Qe4  15. Qd2 f6  16. Bd3 Qd5  17. exf6 gxf6  18. b5 Ne5  19. Nxe5 fxe5  20. c6 

Black played 20 ... b6 (which I believe is worse than what we have been analysing) 21 Qc2 exd 22 Qa4 a5 23 bxa Bh3 24 Rf3 QxR 25 PxQ Rg8+
28 Bg5 RxB+ 29 Kf2 (and besides 1-0, the database does not say
anything else; perhaps Black is lost - I did not analyse, I simply put down the moves)

On our previous discusson I looked at:

On   
   
"21. cxb7+ Kb8  22. Bg5 Bb4  23. Qxb4 Qxg5 24. Qc4! Qd5 25. Rac1"

Instead of 25 Rac1, I looked at 25 Qc6 Rd6 26 Qc2 but did not get anything special

On 

"20...Bh6  21. Bxh6 Qxd4+  22. Kh1 Qxd3  23. Qa5"

I tried Qf2 but, again, did not get anything special.

lg

To Markovich

Spent the afternoon, watching in Internet the Topalov-Kramnik game and also looked at your most
recent comments, namely
"However, going back a bit, I mistrust Black's position after 11...Kb8 12. a4 f6  13. a5 Nc8  14. Qb3 N8e7 (14...fxe5?  15. d5) 15. d5"

I analised 15... exd after 15. d5 (note again that this is a brief analysis):

i) 16 cxd Nxd5 17 R(f)d1 Bc2 17 Bxa7+ NxB 18 QxB Bc5+ 19 Kh1 Ne3 20 RxQ NxQ  21 R(a)d1 and have
stopped here with no clear assessment to who is better
ii) 16 R(f)d1 dxc 17 Qxc4  (17 Bxc4 Qc8 18 RxR QxR 19 e6 seems better for White) Qe8 18 RxR 
(first 19 a6 b6 20 RxR would force 20... NxR) QxR 19 exf gxf 20 a6 b6 21 Nb5 (Nd4!?) Qd5 22 Qf4 Qd7
23 Nd4 Nd5 24 QxB QxQ 25 NxQ (it may be the case that white can play Nc6+, sacrificing the
Queen, and even get a better position) NxB 26 NxN Bc5 27 Kf2 Re8 28 Ra3 Nb4 (probably BxR is safer)
29 Rc3 RxN 30 RxR Nc2 31 Kf3 and after a few moves White got a piece for 3 pawns)

So all of that needs a better check.

I also felt that the Knight in e7 blocked the bishop in f8 for several (lots of moves) an dtried to
find an alternative to 14 ... N8e7. I tried 14 ... a6 (?) 15 d5 Nxe5 16 NxN fxN 17 c5 and white appears
to be much better.

Perhaps, in the alternative 11 ... Kb8 12 a4 and Black allows a5, it may me worth looking at your original
suggestion of 12 ... Bb4.

I am analysing now, 11 ...Kb8 12 a4 a5 13 d5 Nb4 and will get back to you. If I we are not happy, then
we will put 11... Kb8 in the rubish basket.

I also did not forget about your

"(For the benefit of others, 1. e4 Nf5  2. e5 Nd5  3. d4 d6  4. c4 Nb6  5. f4 dxe4  6. fxe4 Nc6  7. Be3 Bf5  8. Nc3 e6  9. Nf3 Qd7  10. Be2 0-0-0  11. 0-0 Bg4  12. c5 Nd5  13. Nxd5 Qxd5  14. b4 Qe4  15. Qd2 f6  16. Bd3 Qd5  17. exf6 gxf6  18. b5 Ne5  19. Nxe5 fxe5  20. c6 exd4) 
 
21. cxb7+ Kb8  22. Bg5 Bb4  23. Qxb4 Qxg5 24. Qc4! Qd5 25. Rac1 Qxc4  26. Rxc4 Bf5  27. Bxf5 exf5  28. Rd1 d3 (28...Rd5 27. Rdxd4 Rxb5  28. Rd7 looks better for White)  29. Rc3 (White can't give Black time to get two rooks behind the pawn) 29...d2  30. Rc2 Kxb7  31. Rcxd2 (31. a4 Rhe8=) 31...Rxd2  32. Rxd2 Re8  33. Kf2 Re5=."

as well as your analysis on the Minasian-Donchenko game

best, lg

lg wrote on 09/22/06 at 13:19:29:


There really are no up-to-date theory-books on this defense, of which I am aware; Cox's work is yeomanlike but it is by no means a theory-book; Davies is cursory and growing out-of-date; Kriszany and Videki is highly selective and not very good even in the lines that it does cover; Burgess is out of date; Hort is very out of date, though at least it is a solid theory-book by a top GM.  That exhausts my references.

I must thank you for pointing out 20...exd4, a move that I rejected before on shallow grounds.  It appears that it may offer Black good chances.  I have analyzed it, and one interesting line is:

(For the benefit of others, 1. e4 Nf5  2. e5 Nd5  3. d4 d6  4. c4 Nb6  5. f4 dxe4  6. fxe4 Nc6  7. Be3 Bf5  8. Nc3 e6  9. Nf3 Qd7  10. Be2 0-0-0  11. 0-0 Bg4  12. c5 Nd5  13. Nxd5 Qxd5  14. b4 Qe4  15. Qd2 f6  16. Bd3 Qd5  17. exf6 gxf6  18. b5 Ne5  19. Nxe5 fxe5  20. c6 exd4)

21. cxb7+ Kb8  22. Bg5 Bb4  23. Qxb4 Qxg5 24. Qc4! Qd5 25. Rac1 Qxc4  26. Rxc4 Bf5  27. Bxf5 exf5  28. Rd1 d3 (28...Rd5 27. Rdxd4 Rxb5  28. Rd7 looks better for White)  29. Rc3 (White can't give Black time to get two rooks behind the pawn) 29...d2  30. Rc2 Kxb7  31. Rcxd2 (31. a4 Rhe8=) 31...Rxd2  32. Rxd2 Re8  33. Kf2 Re5=.

To Markovich

Well, about one of the shames (for me) is that in so many Alekhine books,
there is no reference to that move (although it has been played by A. Miles -
and by A. Wohl - in this game White played 12 Kh1 and this is a funny position because
it is similar to previous analysed positions where here we have the Kings in h1
and b8 while in the known position we have the Kings in g1 and c8 - it appears to
me that Black benefits with the change in the position of the Kings).
The two other games I know where 11 ... Kb8 has been played, are two games
by Beckmann where White played 12 d5 (which is sound to me) and 12 b3 (?!).
The game by Miles is interesting because it illustrates the type of attack that 
Black may look for (although I dont think 12 Qd2 was that good).
I agree with you that 12 a4 is the critical move.
Blacks two options are i) 12 ... a5 and ii) allowing a5 by White
After 12 ... a5, I think 13 d5 is strong. If Black replies 13 ... exd then we obtain a line
that, in my opinion, is much worse for Black than the line played without 
12 a4 a5 included (which I believe is playable for Black).
Thus after 12 a4 a5 13 d5 I would suggest looking at 13 ... Nb4.
Alternative ii) is what we have been discussing and may (?!) be playable.

Changing subjects and in the position previously discussed by you
after 11 ... Bg4 .... 15 Qd2 (your move) and 20 c6 here are three variations
given quickly by guiding a chess program (thus they may easily improved)

i)  20            Bc5
    21 cxb+    Kb8
    22 dxc      QxB
    23 QxQ     RxQ
    24 R(a)e1 KxP
    25 Rf7      Bf5
    26 c6+     Kb8
and it may be possible that White wins by giving a piece by
playing BxP+ and RxP(c7)

ii (if Black plays 21 ...KxP then
    22 Qc2    exd ?! (sacrificing the queen for 2 bishops)
    23 Be4   

Is this playable for Black?! I mentioned here this variation because similar themes may arise in other variations (for instance after 20 ... exd)

Finally, one notices that although White appears to have a strong attach on the 
position after 20 c6, one notices that Black's Queen is hitting g2, and Black
threatens Rg8 and Bh3.
So here is one fun vaiation where, I agree, White may not be playing the best moves but this illustrates what happens if Black can put his bishop on c5

     20           exd
     21 cxb+   Kb8 (KxP?!)
     22 Bf4      
     (22  Bg5 allows 22 ....Bb4)
                   e5
     23 Bg5     Re8
     24 Bf6?!    Rg8
     25 Bxh7?  Bc5
and I think BLack has a strong attack 

lg