(UTC)
  ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › 1. e4 e5 - Non-Spanish › Italian › 4.O-O in the Italian Game
(Moderators: trw, Smyslov_Fan, Jupp53)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 4.O-O in the Italian Game (Read 18727 times)
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: 4.O-O in the Italian Game
Reply #24 - 11/03/06 at 10:45:21
Post Tools
Not a very good game, but it ilustrates the problems quite well.
[Event "USA-ch op 94th"]
[Site "Philadelphia"]
[Date "1993.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Cotton,Donald R"]
[Black "Pinedo,Javier"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "C53"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Qf6 5.b4 Bb6 6.a4 a6 7.0-0 d6 8.d3 Bg4 
9.Bg5 Qg6 10.Be3 Nf6 11.Bxb6 cxb6 12.Nbd2 Nh5 13.Kh1 Nf4 14.Rg1 h5 15.h3 Qf6 16.hxg4 hxg4+ 
17.Nh2 Rxh2+ 0-1
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Justinhorton
Full Member
***
Offline


Kingpinista

Posts: 243
Location: Spain
Joined: 10/27/06
Gender: Male
Re: 4.O-O in the Italian Game
Reply #23 - 11/03/06 at 10:30:53
Post Tools
Willempie wrote on 11/03/06 at 09:54:27:
Basically you lack the possibility of Qf6-Ne7.


That's so of course - but if Black's going to play that he needs to play it now (8...Qf6) and so we need to decide whether it's any good. I notice that Zukertort won from this position against Chigorin - but also that Chigorin later repeated the line: sixteen years later, but only in a simul.

Now there's contemporary opening theory for you.
  
http://lostontime.blogspot.com
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: 4.O-O in the Italian Game
Reply #22 - 11/03/06 at 09:54:27
Post Tools
It is not suboptimal. You basicly just switched Nf6 for Bg4. In the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d3 d6 6.b4 Bb6 7.a4 a6 you could play 0-0 now as white (one of the better moves). Now 8.0-0 Bg4 is not so good as in the similar position (though definately not bad) as the Nf6 now blocks the queen. Basicly you lack the possibility of Qf6-Ne7.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Justinhorton
Full Member
***
Offline


Kingpinista

Posts: 243
Location: Spain
Joined: 10/27/06
Gender: Male
Re: 4.O-O in the Italian Game
Reply #21 - 11/03/06 at 09:21:59
Post Tools
Willempie wrote on 11/03/06 at 08:39:07:
[n the 4.0-0 example d4 cant really be played and white has to settle for d3, which is already a minor success. The only ways open for white to get through d4 is to manoeuvre around the pin (by the ruy knight path for example Nb1-d2-f1-e3) or weaken his kingside by h3. The latter is where the difference is with the standard c3-d3 lines. Still it is not a major upset for white.


My point is that there is a well-known line in the 4.c3 Nf6 variation in which White deliberately refrains from d4 and prefers b4, a4 etc instead. In this line, as I understand it, Black normally chooses not to play ...Bg4.

Therefore if 4.O-O d6 5.c3 Bg4 6.b4 Bb6 7.d3, Black would (with 7...Nf6) be in a known line where he has played the sub-optimal ....Bg4. If this is not so, why?
  
http://lostontime.blogspot.com
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: 4.O-O in the Italian Game
Reply #20 - 11/03/06 at 08:39:07
Post Tools
Justinhorton wrote on 11/02/06 at 16:18:58:
Willempie wrote on 10/31/06 at 20:31:11:
Justinhorton wrote on 10/31/06 at 18:34:14:
Why don't the 4...d6 lines just lead to a normal Giuoco Piano with b4, in which ...Bg4 has been played a little prematurely?

Problem is that it is not Bg4 that is premature but 0-0. The pin is often very nasty as it hampers d4 and it takes white quite some time to work around it. Even if white bails out with d3.


It's not clear to me that this is so. If, for instance, White plays 5.b4 in the normal (i.e. 4. c3 Nf6) lines, and then both sides castle and play the d-pawn forward one square, would Black in fact normally play ...Bb4? I'm not sure that he would, and if he would not I don't see why 4.O-O d6 is any different.

In the d3-c3 lines b4 is very often on the menu, in the other lines not (or they transpose). The difference with the main line Giuoco with d6 and Bg4 (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 d6 5.d4) is that black needs the Bg4 to get some counterplay going to offset the center. However due to white not having castled it doesnt stop the big d4-e4 center from being formed and thus this variation is almost never seen. In the 4.0-0 example d4 cant really be played and white has to settle for d3, which is already a minor success. The only ways open for white to get through d4 is to manoeuvre around the pin (by the ruy knight path for example Nb1-d2-f1-e3) or weaken his kingside by h3. The latter is where the difference is with the standard c3-d3 lines. Still it is not a major upset for white.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Justinhorton
Full Member
***
Offline


Kingpinista

Posts: 243
Location: Spain
Joined: 10/27/06
Gender: Male
Re: 4.O-O in the Italian Game
Reply #19 - 11/02/06 at 16:18:58
Post Tools
Willempie wrote on 10/31/06 at 20:31:11:
Justinhorton wrote on 10/31/06 at 18:34:14:
Why don't the 4...d6 lines just lead to a normal Giuoco Piano with b4, in which ...Bg4 has been played a little prematurely?

Problem is that it is not Bg4 that is premature but 0-0. The pin is often very nasty as it hampers d4 and it takes white quite some time to work around it. Even if white bails out with d3.


It's not clear to me that this is so. If, for instance, White plays 5.b4 in the normal (i.e. 4. c3 Nf6) lines, and then both sides castle and play the d-pawn forward one square, would Black in fact normally play ...Bb4? I'm not sure that he would, and if he would not I don't see why 4.O-O d6 is any different.
  
http://lostontime.blogspot.com
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2211
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: 4.O-O in the Italian Game
Reply #18 - 11/01/06 at 02:31:05
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 10/31/06 at 20:11:27:
A little question: 3...Bc5 (I prefer 3...Nf6 too) 4.0-0 d6 5.b4 and who benefits from this delayed Evans Gambit?


Black probably benefits more from this move order since white has lost some flexibility, moreover  Evans Gambit experts would rather defer castling so as to avoid facing the highly regarded Lasker Defence in its most efficient form, namely: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.0-0 d6!! 5.b4 Bxb4 (Declining with 5...Bb6!? also gives black a very comfortable game) 6.c3 Ba5 7.d4 Bb6! 8.dxe5 dxe5 and some sources now erroneuosly give 9.Bxf7+ Kxf7 10.Nxe5+ as strong for White, but in fact after the calm 10...Ke8! White is losing if not completely lost.

I find it curious that many sources seem to ignore 4...d6, but in all probability it maybe the safest course for black and in no way inferior to the more widely publicised 4...Nf6.

Conclusion: Many of these half forgotten ancient lines can be quite tricky, but objectively against a well informed player of the Black pieces should at best offer no more than equality, and often times less than that. 

Regards,

Toppy Smiley

 

   
  
The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: 4.O-O in the Italian Game
Reply #17 - 11/01/06 at 00:18:05
Post Tools
Willempie wrote on 10/31/06 at 20:31:11:

@Mnb I am not 100% sure but iirc accepting the b-pawn is not worse than the main line Evans, on the other hand Bb6 should lead to the positions mentioned so it shouldnt matter too much either way.


But at least 4.0-0 d6 5.b4 Bxb4 6.c3 avoids the ...Be7 defence, which you like so much.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: 4.O-O in the Italian Game
Reply #16 - 10/31/06 at 20:38:02
Post Tools
Quote:
10....Qd7 11.Bg5,h6 [Willempie]  doesnt look like a very good idea. I think this might drop a pawn after
11.Bxf,gxf 12.Nxe5 since the bishop on h5 is unprotected.

I thought that would be too much after 12.Bxf6 gxf6 13.Nxe5 Nxe5 14.Qxh5 0-0-0 but you may be right that that is better for white. I am undecided atm as it would require a bit more thinking.

  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: 4.O-O in the Italian Game
Reply #15 - 10/31/06 at 20:31:11
Post Tools
Justinhorton wrote on 10/31/06 at 18:34:14:
Why don't the 4...d6 lines just lead to a normal Giuoco Piano with b4, in which ...Bg4 has been played a little prematurely?

Problem is that it is not Bg4 that is premature but 0-0. The pin is often very nasty as it hampers d4 and it takes white quite some time to work around it. Even if white bails out with d3.
Still afaik 5..Nf6 is quite ok too as micawber points out, though I dont like his line B.

So in short 4.0-0 isnt a bad move but you make black's task easier than after the Evans or the d3-c3 system, without much benefits as far as I can tell.

@Mnb I am not 100% sure but iirc accepting the b-pawn is not worse than the main line Evans, on the other hand Bb6 should lead to the positions mentioned so it shouldnt matter too much either way.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
micawber
God Member
*****
Offline


like many sneaks and skunks
in history he's a poet

Posts: 852
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 09/07/05
Gender: Male
Re: 4.O-O in the Italian Game
Reply #14 - 10/31/06 at 20:26:52
Post Tools
The Gutman/Bucher variation with 10.Re1,h6 11.Nbd2 has been known for a very long time:

11....Ne7!? 12.Ba2,0-0 13.Nc4,Ba7 14.a5,Ng6 15. Be3,Nh4 and black is Ok
(Varley [2200] - Waddingham [2345]; Southport 1980!)

10....Qd7 11.Bg5,h6 [Willempie]  doesnt look like a very good idea. I think this might drop a pawn after
11.Bxf,gxf 12.Nxe5 since the bishop on h5 is unprotected.
Also note that to follow up with g5 later is a bit of a problem after gxf  Huh
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: 4.O-O in the Italian Game
Reply #13 - 10/31/06 at 20:11:27
Post Tools
A little question: 3...Bc5 (I prefer 3...Nf6 too) 4.0-0 d6 5.b4 and who benefits from this delayed Evans Gambit?
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
micawber
God Member
*****
Offline


like many sneaks and skunks
in history he's a poet

Posts: 852
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 09/07/05
Gender: Male
Re: 4.O-O in the Italian Game
Reply #12 - 10/31/06 at 19:38:31
Post Tools
Good point !
4.0-0,d6
5.c3, Nf6 looks about normal to me:

A) 6.b4,Bb6 and now 7.d3 is necessary (7.a4, Nxe4!? 8.a5,Bxf 9.Rxf,Nxf 10.Kf2,e4! with enough comp)

B) 6.d4,Bb6! 7.dxe, Nxe! 8.Nxe,dxe 9.Qxd8+, Kxd8 10.Bg5, Ke7 (followed by Be6)  is harmless (Bellin-John Nunn 1970) [10.Bxf7?, Rf8 11.Bb3, Nxe4 with a triple attack on f2]

C) 6.d3, a6 with a 'normal' modern italian game.

Perhaps italian experts can improve on the examples.
I rarely reach these positions playing 3....Nf6!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Justinhorton
Full Member
***
Offline


Kingpinista

Posts: 243
Location: Spain
Joined: 10/27/06
Gender: Male
Re: 4.O-O in the Italian Game
Reply #11 - 10/31/06 at 18:34:14
Post Tools
Why don't the 4...d6 lines just lead to a normal Giuoco Piano with b4, in which ...Bg4 has been played a little prematurely?
  
http://lostontime.blogspot.com
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: 4.O-O in the Italian Game
Reply #10 - 10/31/06 at 16:02:07
Post Tools
BadPritt wrote on 10/31/06 at 14:08:34:
Although this variation was given by the Gutman/Bucker team, I suppose I am more or less obliged to defend the white side since I have said it is well worth trying. In contrast to the Max Lange this variation is of a more slow character and consequently the nature of an eventual white advantage will be more of the slow, nagging type, a bit like you will also find in the closed Ruy Lopez.
So let's have a look at your suggestions.

I would just add this as a general comment. The resulting positions are all related to the d3-c3 Giuco and not the particularly nice ones for white. I played a lot of these positions and in general when black knows what he is doing he is very much ok.
Quote:

- 8...Bxf3 9. Qxf3 Qf6  A perfect example of the type of advantage mentioned above. White has the bishoppair and can choose whether he likes to exchange queens or keep them on. I think there is not much point in examining concrete variations. This is just a typical += scenario.

Yes optically white is a bit better, but his bishop pair is rather useless. The black bishop is a bit devoid of good fields other than exchanging, while the other is just looking at f7. On the other hand the knights can be quite useful in these positions.
Quote:

- 8...Be6  After 9. Bxe6 fxe6 white can point to the doubled e-pawns of course, but it is not much and of a more fleeting nature than the bishopppair above after 8...Bxf3. Again it is hard to give a concrete variation, but let's say something like 10. d3 Nf6 11. Nbd2 0-0 12. Nc4 Ba7 13. Bg5 b5 14. axb5 axb5 15. Na5 Ne7 16. d4 and there is still some play in the position. It is quite possible though that black can fully equalize here or somewhere along the way.

The d5 break is always an option after the bishop's exchange. Ie at move 11.
Quote:

- 9...Qf6  That's a very unfortunate one, as the queen is lost after 10. g4 Bg6? 11. Bg5

Yeah missed that, I got a bit carried away Grin 
Quote:

- 10...Qd7  Ok, but then what is your follow-up to 11. Bg5, the move that was radically prevented by 10...h6?

11..h6 with g5 to follow later. Black hasnt castled so black can start a kingside attack rather quickly.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2026. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge