Quote:


I consider the above an optimal style, control the game with White but strive to create chaos as Black.

Curiously enough though, I would have thought being a Pirc Modern and Alekhine advocate that you would have grown accustomed to having all but the kitchen sink thrown at you.

Topper  

Yes. But only few people realize, that Spielmann also had big scores defending in the famous gambit tournaments of 1912 and 1914.
10...Be7 11.f5 e5 gives White at least full compensation according to M/V. They suggest some interesting ideas for the gambit player.
It is quite simple. There is a kind of player, that is exactly the opposite of the optimistic gambiteer: the optimistic defender. My good friend Wim Veer is a good example. Show him this line and he will say: Black is a pawn up.
If your are such a player, then this is for you. You will have fair results. But don't complain, if you become victim of some vicious attacks now and then. Wim Veer doesn't, except about his own mistakes - after complimenting the imagination of the attacker. I know, because I have won a few important games against him, even though he is the better player and has a positive score.

Because White gets excellent attacking chances after 8...Qc8 9.Ng5 Nd8 10.f4.
Levy-Fuller: I don't know!
Papaioannou-Nikolaidis: White can make use of the "weak" c-pawn with c3-c4-c5.

[quote author=Michael Ayton link=1162564598/0#7 date=1163078932]Hence my interest in 5 …g6!?. As I suggested earlier, mightn’t the fact that White has committed himself to Bc4 here be a significant difference from the …g6 Philidor/Scotch, in Black’s favour?

In the 4 …d6 5 c3!? line, 5 …Nf6, 5 …Ne5, 5 …d3 and 5 …dc all appear to be playable. I’d be interested to know which people think best! (I know that the Göring Gambit line to which 5 ...dc leads is not normally thought Black’s best, but is there anything really wrong with it? – e.g. 6 Nc3 Be6!? 7 Be6 fe 8 Qb3 Qd7 9 Qb7 Rb8 10 Qa6 Be7 11 0-0 Bf6.)[/quote]

Indeed one might argue, that 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Bc4 is not the best way to meet this line of the Philidor. Then again, 5...Nc6 might not be the best move either.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc3 d6 5.Nxd4 Nf6 6.Nc3 g6 7.0-0 Bg7 8.Nxc6 bxc6 9.e5 looks pretty good for White. Hence 5...g6 6.0-0 Bg7 7.Nxc6 bxc6 8.Nc3 Be6!? as already played by Pillsbury! Black has done so well in 16 games, that this might be hardly critical anymore.
For the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 d6 5.c3 I recommend to consult Müller/Voigt's Danish Dynamite on 5...dxc3 and 5...d3. They seem to think, that White can prove an edge at least, also in Michael Ayton's line. On 5...Ne5 they refer to Glek-Drejev, Lvov 1985, treated in Informator 39/381. Again they give White a +=.

I distrust both 5...dxc3 and 5...d3, based on my experience with the Göring Gambit in my younger days. The latter is passive. The first requires very precise play from Black, while equality is by no means guaranteed.
Not in Müller/Voigt: 5...dxc3 6.Nxc3 Be6 7.Bxe6 fxe6 8.Qb3 Qd7! (better than Qc8 indeed) 9.Qxb7 Rb8 10.Qa6 Be7 11.0-0 Bf6 (Nf6 12.Rd1 += at least) 12.Rd1 (but there is also 12.e5 from Levy-Fuller, Praia da Rocha, 1969) Nge7 13.Qe2 Ng6 14.Be3 Bxc3 (M/V give 0-0 15.Rac1 +=) 15.bxc3 0-0 Papaioannou (2470)-Nikolaidis (2565) ½-½. It says something, that the stronger player apparently offered a draw.
As 5...Nf6 6.cxd4 Nxe4 7.Qb3 is also annoying for Black, I would take a chance on 5...Ne5.

4...Be7 5.c3 (White wants to play a Scotch [i]Gambit[/i]) Na5 (I would love to meet ...dxc3 as 6.Nxc3 really is a good variation of the Göring Gambit) is equal according to M/V. But after 6.Bd3 White has the remarkable score of 9/11! So there are a few good reasons to mess things up a bit  ;)

I agree that the Hungarian that Black could reach with 5 …Nf6 6 Nc3 Be7 is a bit better for White. (And so in the 4 …Be7 line MNb cites I see no reason for White to mess with 5 c3.) Hence my interest in 5 …g6!?. As I suggested earlier, mightn’t the fact that White has committed himself to Bc4 here be a significant difference from the …g6 Philidor/Scotch, in Black’s favour?

In the 4 …d6 5 c3!? line, 5 …Nf6, 5 …Ne5, 5 …d3 and 5 …dc all appear to be playable. I’d be interested to know which people think best! (I know that the Göring Gambit line to which 5 ...dc leads is not normally thought Black’s best, but is there anything really wrong with it? – e.g. 6 Nc3 Be6!? 7 Be6 fe 8 Qb3 Qd7 9 Qb7 Rb8 10 Qa6 Be7 11 0-0 Bf6.)

I’m still intrigued by the “Alekhine’s Defence” appellation. When Willempie mentioned this my first thought was that it might refer most properly to 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 d6!?, as played in the famous miniature Rodzynski–Alekhine. But I suppose this will normally transpose, after 4 d4 ed, to 3 d4 ed 4 Bc4 d6 anyway, since 4 c3 Bg4 (as in the R–A game) seems OK for Black, while Malaniuk and others have played 4 …g6!? here too.

So maybe this thread should have been called “Alekhine’s Other Defence”, and maybe 3 Bc4 d6 4 d4 ed 5 Nd4 g6 is the critical line of what might well be an underestimated system?

Willempie wrote on 11/03/06 at 15:52:45:


Presumably u mean 3.Bc4 Be7 4.d4 exd4 5.c3 as suggested by many sources but perhaps the anti- positional looking and largely ignored 5...Na5!? is worth further investigation. This underestimated move is not as silly as it looks at first sight.

Tops     

Thanks to both! I notice that some twelve years after his game with the [i]Aachen Chronicle[/i] readers Pachman had the same position against one Kreuzer, when an early draw occurred after 13 Nb5 Qc6 14 Nd4 Qd5. (After 11 f4 Neg4 12 e5, btw, what's wrong with swiping off the Bishop on e3 before playing ...c5?)

Point taken, Willempie, about the not-the-Hungarian! (I'm amazed this is sometimes called Alekhine's Defence!) Should we, then, regard 5 c3 as the main line, and what do you think is the best defence? I've just noticed that Malaniuk, no less, recently played 5 ...d3 here, which might look limp but I guess having ...d6 in could aid ...Ne5 possibilities? (I suppose play against the Bishop on c4 is in a sense the whole point of 4 ...d6!?, at least if followed by ...g6, since in the Larsen Variation of the Philidor White gains by having his King's Bishop at home or on e2.)