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Yes - playable != fully equal of course In particular generating realistic winning chances for black in these lines once the theory gets deep isn't at all easy and the positions aren't dead draws either. At least some of the newer lines aren't worked out to this extent yet.

I guess the difference is that Nc3 tries to question the openings right to existence which the Tarrasch really doesn't do as there is always 3..c5 & exd5 if everything more interesting fails. But I'm sure I can't be the only player who's done better vs Nc3.
(Ok so this is at a level where white players aren't playing the ultra critical lines after Nc3 - they really are a little scary.).

Matters are still not clear, at least not to me.
10...Qc7 11.Nc3 a6 12.Bg5 Bd6 13.Bh4 (13.o-o o-o 14.Bh4 Nh5 is one of the main lines) o-o (Nh5? 14.Bg3 Nxg3 15.hxg3 does not transpose, as pawn h7 is hanging) 14.Bg3 e5 15.dxe5 Nxe5 16.Nxe5 Bxe5 17.o-o Bxg3 and Black is OK, Jansa-Breutigam, Malmö Open 1986.
10...Qc7 11.Bf4 Bb4+ and is White's extra move useful after 12.Bd2 Bd6 13.o-o o-o 14.Nc3 a6 15.Re1 ? Dom's line with 12.Nd2 also looks annoying.
After 10...Bd6 11.o-o o-o 12.Bg5 Qc7 (Qe8 13.Re1 Ng4 14.h3 but Black has some other moves) 13.Rc1 White scores a very good 60%, so Black should better be prepared. What about Ng4 14.Ng3 Qb6!?

10...Bd6 11.o-o (11.Bf4) o-o (Qc7 now ?) 12.Bf4 Bxf4 13.Nxf4
a)13...Ne4 14.Ne2 Rxf3 15.gxf3 Ng5 16.Kh1 e5 17.dxe5 Nxe5 (iso Nxf3) 18.Ng1 (18.Nd4!?) Qf6 19.Be2 Bd7 20.Qxd5+ Kh8 21.Rfd1 Bc6 22.Qd6 Ne6 23.Rac1 has not done very well for Black.
b)is 13...Ng4 14.g3 g5 already refuted?
c)13...Qd6 14.g3 e5 does not look good enough.

So the old saying applies: I used to think that I was insecure, but now I don't know anymore ...

Zeiger line:

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. Bd3 c5 6. c3 Nc6 7. Ne2 cxd4 8. cxd4 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Nf3 Bd6 11. 0-0 0-0 12. Bf4 Bxf4 13. Nxf4 Ne4 

if 14. g3 or Qc1 then black will play Qf6 and follow by g5...

but for 14. Ne2 Rxf3 15. gxf3 Ng5 16. Kh1 e5 17. dxe5 Nxf3 18. Bxh7+ Kh8 (if i not mistaken, i only look at the DVD once...), white had too many reply here... for example, 19. Ng1 Nd4 20. Nxf3 Bg4 21. Nxd4 Bxd1...then rook take bishop and black play King take Bishop...i dislike this line, according to Zeiger, White may play for draw if he want to, and many of the position, White position was more easy to play...

i am thinking to avoid tarrash variation after looking at the DVD...

I haven't had time to get in-depth with the Ziegler DVD yet.  Also, I'm going out of town tonight for Thanksgiving, and won't be home until Sunday afternoon.  I'll try to get back to you next week after the Holiday and after I've had more time to look into Ziegler's analysis.

TopNotch wrote on 11/19/06 at 22:07:07:


Thanks for the reply.

First: no, I'm not so in love with the 11...Qc7 variation that I would risk anything to achieve it; in fact, I haven't played this line in about 6 years.  I just started looking at it again, and had a move order question; I didn't see why some players played 10...Bd6 and then 11...Qc7, giving White the extra option of playing 11. Bf4.  I was under the impression that 10...Qc7 avoided 11.Bf4, due to 11...Bb4+; maybe that's not the case, however.

Secondly: is 11.Bf4 instead of 11.0-0 good for white?  I don't know for sure, but I doubt that White has anything more than a "normal" edge here.  I'm not afraid of the move 11.Bf4, I just wanted to know whether Black can by-pass it completely with 10...Qc7.

Thirdly: did Tiviakov bust the whole ...Qc7 & ...Bd6 system?  I don't know; that's part of what I was trying to get at with my post!  I'll take a look at the Tiviakov lines; perhaps these are why most players play 10...Bd6 now.

And lastly: in my investigations, I found the line 10...Qc7 11.0-0 Bd6 12.g3!?.  I hadn't seen this idea when I last played the French, so I'll have to look at it.

So is it safe to say that after 10...Bd6 11.0-0 0-0 is now the most accurate move (and not 11...Qc7)? 

Tiviakov's idea occurs only in the line (system with Qc7+Ng4+g6):  10..Qc7 11.oo Bd6 12.Bg5 oo 13.Rc1 Ng4 14.Ng3 g6 and now 15.Nd2! ... and Tiviakov himself gave some moves playable as Black, for example: 14...Bd7!? ; 13...g6 ; 13...Nh5!? , 13...Kh8

One variation is needed to decide if Qc7 is unplayable.

I played the variation as Black 2 hours ago (rapid Ste Foix Aigrefeuille)... and in fact, not so clear despite Psakhis opinion:
10....Qc7 11.Bf4 Bb4+ 12.Nd2!? Bd6 13.Bxd6 Qxd6 14.oo oo 15.Nf3 Ng4 16.Ng3 e5 17.dxe5 Ngxe5 18.Nxe5 Nxe5 (Psakhis gave good position for Black because of knight position on g3 square) and now19.Bc2!? Bg4?! 20.Qd4! +=   

Maybe better: 10...Bd6 11.Bf4 Bb4!? or 11....Qa5+ 12.Qd2 Bb4 13.Nc3 oo 14.oo Ne4 15.Bxe4 dxe4 16.Ng5 Nxd4 17.Qxd4 Rxf4 (Psakhis)