Alesab wrote on 02/12/07 at 13:36:12:


Black can still play 3...d5 there, no problem

Markovich wrote on 02/13/07 at 13:14:05:



Did you forget to choose "all posts" in the drop down field?

Look around the forum, we've discussed 3...Nc6 several times since the FKG came out in January 2005. At the moment, I don't find much to comment on as it's extremely rare as far as I know. 
- I can only find one game since 2005...


Btw, from the latest TWIC, here's something for Oliver to look at, white gives three pieces to mate! 

Papp,G (2335) - Pilgaard,K (2412) [C37]
FSGM February Budapest HUN (3), 05.02.2007

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.d4 Bg7 5.Nc3 d6 6.g3 g4 7.Nh4 f3 8.Be3 c6 9.Qd2 Qa5 10.0-0-0 Ne7 11.Bh6 Rg8 12.Kb1 Bh8 13.Qf4 b5 14.Nf5 Rg6 15.Nxd6+ Rxd6 16.Qxd6 b4 17.Na4 Qxa4 18.Bg5 f6 19.h3 fxg5 20.hxg4 Bg7 21.Rxh7 Bf8 22.Bc4 Nd7 23.Bf7+ Kd8 24.Rh8 Qxc2+ 25.Kxc2 b3+ 26.Kb1 bxa2+ 27.Ka1 1-0

[quote author=Willempie link=1171277123/0#9 date=1171290125][quote author=Markovich link=1171277123/0#5 date=1171288170]Actually if followed up with 4. Nf3 Nf6, this simply transposes into the "Modern Defense," about which there is a very substantial theory.  Since this is one of the best defenses to the Knight's Gambit, it is a little frustrating for a player of the Bishop's Gambit to have to play into it. Fortunately however, White has the option of 4. Bb5+ instead of 4. Nf3. Then 4...c6  5. dxc6 Nxc6  6. d4 is quite different and, I suspect, a little better for White than it is with both king's knights out.
  [/quote]
Disagree here:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 c6 4.dxc6 Nxc6 5.Bb5 exf4 6.d4 and now 6..Qa5+ 7.Nc3 Bb4 and to me black looks much better.[/quote]

Well, it seems we do disagree since after 7...Bb4, I think 8. Bxc6+ bxc6  9. Qf3 Ne7  10. Ne2 is promising for White.  Yeah, and I did sort of recall discussing this before.

[quote author=Markovich link=1171277123/0#10 date=1171291594][quote author=Willempie link=1171277123/0#9 date=1171290125][quote author=Markovich link=1171277123/0#5 date=1171288170]Actually if followed up with 4. Nf3 Nf6, this simply transposes into the "Modern Defense," about which there is a very substantial theory.  Since this is one of the best defenses to the Knight's Gambit, it is a little frustrating for a player of the Bishop's Gambit to have to play into it. Fortunately however, White has the option of 4. Bb5+ instead of 4. Nf3. Then 4...c6  5. dxc6 Nxc6  6. d4 is quite different and, I suspect, a little better for White than it is with both king's knights out.
  [/quote]
Disagree here:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 c6 4.dxc6 Nxc6 5.Bb5 exf4 6.d4 and now 6..Qa5+ 7.Nc3 Bb4 and to me black looks much better.[/quote]

Hmm.  Maybe I'm wrong about 4. Bb5+.  I thought I recalled looking at this and thinking it was pretty good for White.  I'll look at this some more and come back.[/quote]


We've discussed it already: [url]http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1080450197/18#18[/url]

[quote author=Willempie link=1171277123/0#9 date=1171290125][quote author=Markovich link=1171277123/0#5 date=1171288170]Actually if followed up with 4. Nf3 Nf6, this simply transposes into the "Modern Defense," about which there is a very substantial theory.  Since this is one of the best defenses to the Knight's Gambit, it is a little frustrating for a player of the Bishop's Gambit to have to play into it. Fortunately however, White has the option of 4. Bb5+ instead of 4. Nf3. Then 4...c6  5. dxc6 Nxc6  6. d4 is quite different and, I suspect, a little better for White than it is with both king's knights out.
  [/quote]
Disagree here:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 c6 4.dxc6 Nxc6 5.Bb5 exf4 6.d4 and now 6..Qa5+ 7.Nc3 Bb4 and to me black looks much better.[/quote]

Hmm.  Maybe I'm wrong about 4. Bb5+.  I thought I recalled looking at this and thinking it was pretty good for White.  I'll look at this some more and come back.

Yes, Marcovich, our posts crossed.

I hope I understand your last post correctly, because I still believe my points are essentially correct.
It is possible that point 3) about 4.Bc4 analytically is fairly unimportant compared to your 4.Bb5+, but ChessBase 2006 statistics to some extents supports 4.Bc4:
- It has been played more frequently (40 games compared to 20) 
- It has better practical results (50% vs. 35%) 
- It has been played by stronger players (Adams, Shirov, J.Polgar vs. a couple of 2100+ players). 

This of course proves little in analytical terms, but is quite important from a practical viewpoint. I apologize if I have missed some transpositional trick and would appreciate being corrected.

I am no King's Gambit expert, but I think this sums up the essential points:
1) As Willempie points out, the position after 2...d5 3.exd5 exf4 4.Nf3 more frequently arises after 2...exf4 3.Nf3 d5 4.exd5.
2) The Falkbeer move-order (2...d5) to some extent eliminates the Bishop gambit 2...exf4 3.Bc4!?
3) This is to some extent compensated by White's extra option pointed out by Alesab 2...d5 3.exd5 exf4 4.Bc4 which could also arise after 2...exf4 3.Bc4 d5 4.exd5. But it's worth noting that with this move-order White generally prefers 4.Bxd5.