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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) KG convert (Read 35213 times)
TopNotch
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Re: KG convert
Reply #53 - 09/25/07 at 15:49:11
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@Topnotch:

That Mr. Greet knows something we dont, seems highly probable.  Smiley

But the dates in your last posting confuse me:
Though it seems unlikely that the game was actually played in november 2007 (first date)
it only leaves the event date (april 2007).

Although GM Renet published his highly relevant novelty in 2006, it was not until may 2007 we discussed it on the forum. Andrew may easily have missed this little discussion .
As far as I was able to determine the game you refer to was actually played on september 16th 2007,
or am I mistaken?


Thanks for pointing out the date error, I went back and made the neccessary corrections accordingly.

Toppy Smiley

Postscript: On further checking I'm still not 100% sure if the date is accurate. Maybe someone could verify the date this 4 NCL tournament was actually played.
  
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micawber
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Re: KG convert
Reply #52 - 09/25/07 at 07:02:23
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@Topnotch:

That Mr. Greet knows something we dont, seems highly probable.  Smiley

But the dates in your last posting confuse me:
Though it seems unlikely that the game was actually played in november 2007 (first date)
it only leaves the event date (april 2007).

Although GM Renet published his highly relevant novelty in 2006, it was not until may 2007 we discussed it on the forum. Andrew may easily have missed this little discussion .
As far as I was able to determine the game you refer to was actually played on september 16th 2007,
or am I mistaken?
  
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TopNotch
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Re: KG convert
Reply #51 - 09/25/07 at 01:44:45
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The following game seems to indicate that Mr. Greet has either lost interest in the forum or knows something we don't.

[Event "4NCL"]
[Site "Sunningdale ENG"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Moskovic, D."]
[Black "Greet, A."]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C30"]
[WhiteElo "2286"]
[BlackElo "2428"]
[PlyCount "132"]
[EventDate "2007.09.16"]
[Source "Mark Crowther"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 Bc5 3. Nc3 d6 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. Bc4 Nc6 6. d3 O-O 7. Na4 Bg4 8. Nxc5 dxc5 9. O-O Qd6 10. h3 [10.Qd2! is the move, as forum regulars are well aware.] Bxf3 11. Qxf3 b5 12. Bb3 c4 13. dxc4 bxc4 14. Ba4 Nd4 15. Qd1 Ne6 16. Qxd6 cxd6 17. Be3 Nxe4 18. fxe5 N4c5 19. Bb5 d5 20. b4 Rab8 21.Bxc5 Nxc5 22. Bc6 Rxb4 23. c3 Rb6 24. Bxd5 Nd3 25. Bxc4 Nxe5 26. Bd5 Re8 27.Rae1 Kf8 28. c4 f6 29. Re3 Rb4 30. Ra3 Re7 31. Rc1 Rc7 32. Rb3 Ra4 33. c5 Ke7 34. Rb8 Nd3 35. Rc3 Rd4 36. Be4 Rxe4 37. Rxd3 Rc4 38. Ra3 R4xc5 39. Ra8 Ke6 40.R3xa7 g5 41. Re8+ Kf5 42. Rxc7 Rxc7 43. Re3 Rc1+ 44. Kf2 Ra1 45. a3 h5 46. Rb3 Ra2+ 47. Kf3 g4+ 48. Kg3 Kg5 49. Rb5+ f5 50. h4+ Kf6 51. Ra5 Rb2 52. a4 Ra2 53.Ra8 Rc2 54. Rf8+ Kg6 55. Rg8+ Kf7 56. Rg5 Kf6 57. Rxh5 Rc3+ 58. Kh2 Ra3 59.Rh6+ Ke5 60. Rb6 Rxa4 61. g3 Ra2+ 62. Kg1 f4 63. Rb5+ Ke4 64. Rb4+ Kf3 65. Rb3+ Ke4 66. Rb4+ Kf3 1/2-1/2

So the question remains why did Black willingly enter this line, and with nothing for him to plug at the moment I doubt we can expect an answer on the forum anytime soon.  Wink
 
Toppy Smiley
« Last Edit: 09/25/07 at 15:54:53 by TopNotch »  
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MNb
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Re: KG convert
Reply #50 - 08/05/07 at 20:09:00
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This has been played in Hlusevich-Zaverzin, Izhevsk 1975 - page 211 of Johansson's The Fascinating King's Gambit. White won, but not necessarily because of the opening.
  
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Re: KG convert
Reply #49 - 08/05/07 at 15:29:17
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 07/19/07 at 11:21:44:
I suppose it keeps the bishop, but looks a bit time-consuming. I see 7 f5 is popular, when Black will have difficulty winning and must take care to counter White's kingside build-up, but 7 Nd5 looks most annoying to me as after 7...Nxd5 8 Bxd5 I would be constantly worried about White capturing on c6, then e5, to shattter the pawn structure.
Maybe someone knows a good counter?


How about 8...Ne7 as a counter? And after the natural moves: 9.Bb3 exf4 10.d4 Bb6 11.Bxf4 then perhaps 11...Be6?

I hope you continue your success in the next half of the tournament.

Regards -
  
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Re: KG convert
Reply #48 - 07/20/07 at 01:22:57
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Thanks.
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: KG convert
Reply #47 - 07/19/07 at 11:21:44
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I suppose it keeps the bishop, but looks a bit time-consuming. I see 7 f5 is popular, when Black will have difficulty winning and must take care to counter White's kingside build-up, but 7 Nd5 looks most annoying to me as after 7...Nxd5 8 Bxd5 I would be constantly worried about White capturing on c6, then e5, to shattter the pawn structure.
Maybe someone knows a good counter?
  
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Re: KG convert
Reply #46 - 07/19/07 at 02:42:27
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 07/19/07 at 00:44:43:
I don't know about statistics, but after becoming disillusioned with 7...0-0 I looked at 7...Bb6 with my student (after seeing the Mikhalevski game) but we couldn't make that work either. If White knows what he is doing he always seems to get a plus. Sad
Of course, the ...Bc5 lines are quite easy to play, but I wouldn't want to risk it against a strong KG expert myself.


I was wondering what your thoughts were on 6...a6?

Regards -
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: KG convert
Reply #45 - 07/19/07 at 00:44:43
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I don't know about statistics, but after becoming disillusioned with 7...0-0 I looked at 7...Bb6 with my student (after seeing the Mikhalevski game) but we couldn't make that work either. If White knows what he is doing he always seems to get a plus. Sad
Of course, the ...Bc5 lines are quite easy to play, but I wouldn't want to risk it against a strong KG expert myself.
  
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Re: KG convert
Reply #44 - 07/18/07 at 21:18:17
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asmund wrote on 07/18/07 at 14:40:52:
In a Mega Database 2007 search, after the moves 1. e4 e5 2. f4 Bc5 3. Nf3 d6 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Bc4 Nc6 6. d3 Bg4 7. Na4,
there are two main options by black. The move advocated by Nigel Davies and Mihail Marin in their books is 7... 0-0. This scores 43,3 % for black. 

Why not rather play the other main move 7... Bb6. This scores 59,2 % for black. I have not analyzed these positions, but the statistics seem to indicate that 7... Bb6 is better?


I don't know about your statistics, but in my database I have 114 games after 7...Bb6, White winning 43 and drawing 45 games. That makes a healthy 57% - for White. The move 7...Bb6 also has been analysed on this forum; my conclusion is that White can prove a nice, but clear edge at least beginning with 8.c3. The idea of course is to postpone x.Nxb6 until a suitable moment.

At the other hand after 7...0-0 I have 77 games, White winning 27 and drawing 23 games, which is exactly 50%. Still it looks like White can maintain an endgame edge as well with accurate play. On positional grounds this is what I would expect after 2...Bc5, assuming optimal play by both sides.

As Dragonslayer already has pointed out, White's main problem in the KG is avoiding the draw after 2...exf4. It is remarkable, that Alapin already pointed out something similar more than 100 years ago: "The KG is tactically correct, as White can maintain equality also after optimal counterplay. From a strategical point of view its application is problematic, because in other openings Black's task to equalize is more difficult."
  
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Dragonslayer
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Re: Modern Defense to KG
Reply #43 - 07/18/07 at 16:38:16
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cma6 wrote on 06/02/07 at 02:06:46:

  Dragonslayer, any comments on Larry Kaufman's contention in "The Chess Advantage in Black and White" that:
  Blacks best again KG is 1 e4 e5; 2 f4 d5; 3 exd because if 2...exf; 3 Bc4 is best for White and if then 3...d5; 4 Bxd5.    Kaufman continues, "The recommended move order 2 f4 d5 defangs the Bishop's Gambit, while still permitting an excellent defense to the Knight's Gambit."   
  He gives model games like this: 1 e4, e5; 2 f4, d5; 3 exd, exf; 4 Nf3 (the move order for Black preferred by Karpov and Yusupov), Nf6; 5 Bc4, Nxd5; 6 Bxd5, Qxd5; 7 Nc3. 
  In all these lines, Kaufman says that Black is fine. Is this Black's very best method against the KG?

The internet is rife with such claims as are repertoire books. The Davies/Marin line has also been suggested by IM Vigorito. He too fails to consider White's best moves. 10.Qd2 or 8.c3.
I even heard Dzindzi claim that Bronstein and Spassky only played the KG a few times in their career. Total hogwash! Spassky played more than 40 King's Gambits in serious games and never lost. Bronstein played even more games and only lost a handful. I think most of these claims are being made by people with computers. And isn't 2.Nf3 Nc6 ok for Black too? People who write books like that want to prove equality against all line s after 1.e4 e5. I am sure that the Lopez players are not lying sleepless over similar claims about equalizing against 3.Bb5 (unless it's the Berlin wall - of course!).
2...d5 3.exd5 exf4 4.Bc4 may be worse than 2...exf4 3.Bc4 d5 4.Bxd5 but still playable. After 4.Nf3  Nf6 5.Bc4 Nxd5 6.Bxd5 I agree that it is ok for Black, but I think it is more ok for White! 6.Bxd5 is not forced either. 6.0-0 is a good alternative.
White also has 5.Nc3, 5.c4, 5.Be2 or 5.Bb5+
As for which lines are best I totally agree with Dave's post. After 3.Nf3 g5 4.Bc4 Bg7 there are som unexplored lines that might be playable for White and don't forget 4.h4. Theoretically it's a draw, but White has a couple of tries that have not been tested sufficiently.
4.Nc3 Nc6 is a draw as is 6...Nc6 in the Rosentreter.
  
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Re: KG convert
Reply #42 - 07/18/07 at 14:40:52
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In a Mega Database 2007 search, after the moves 1. e4 e5 2. f4 Bc5 3. Nf3 d6 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Bc4 Nc6 6. d3 Bg4 7. Na4,
there are two main options by black. The move advocated by Nigel Davies and Mihail Marin in their books is 7... 0-0. This scores 43,3 % for black. 

Why not rather play the other main move 7... Bb6. This scores 59,2 % for black. I have not analyzed these positions, but the statistics seem to indicate that 7... Bb6 is better?
  
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Re: KG convert
Reply #41 - 06/02/07 at 16:20:04
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TopNotch wrote on 05/04/07 at 20:49:31:
Quote:
I want to note that .......8.Nxc5,dxc 9.0-0, Qd6 10.Qd2 is not Renet's improvement.
This move had allready occured in Zednik-Azzola, corr. 2001 !, though the position arose by
transposition from the Vienna:

1.e4,e5 2.Nc3, Nf6 3.Bc4!?,Nc6! 4.d3,Bc5 5.f4 !?, 0-0 6.Nf3,d6 7.Na4,Bg4.
8.Nxc5,dxc 9.0-0,Qd6 10.Qd2
As for the analysis:
10.....,Bxf 11.gxf, Nd7 12.f5,Nb6 13.Bb3,[color=#ff0000] Nd4[/color]
I think that black should play 13....a5 (instead of 13...Nd4) first 
(after all: in the subsequent analysis black never gets to play Nxb3)
Now white has not enough time to complete his attacking setup by Kh1-Qg2-Rg1 at once.
He must secure a retreat for his bishop first (a3/c3/c4). All these moves have in common that
(a) black has gained a tempo, as white has played an extra pawn move
(b) Nd4-xb3 looks more attractive, since the double pawn structure weakens with every pawn move.
(c) black keeps open several defensive options where Nd4 is not necessary but the intermediate Qd4+
plays an important role.
Probably 14.a3 is best, keeping the pressure on the f7-g8 diagonal, but now black still has a choice
either to block this with 14....Rfd8 threatening 15..... c4
(also note that after 15.Qg2.... black can play 15...c4 anyway since Qd4+ is available)
or play 14....Kh8 preparing a new defensive line. 


True there is an example of 10.Qd2 in the databases. However I suspect that Renet discovered this idea independently, which his subsequent original analysis would tend to  suggest.

Yes 13...a5!? instead of 13...Nd4 deserves consideration, but I still doubt that it is good enough for black to claim equality. The long term problems are that the black knights lack stable outpost, his king is weak and white possesses the two Bishops and an open g-file to attack along. The light squared bishop in particular is a monster, while the knight on b6 just seems misplaced and too far away from the defence of its monarch.

A possible continuation could be:    1. e4 e5 2. f4 Bc5 3. Nf3 d6 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Bc4 Nc6 6. d3 Bg4 7. Na4 O-O 8. Nxc5 dxc5 9. O-O Qd6 10. Qd2 Bxf3 11. gxf3 Nd7 12. f5 Nb6 13. Bb3 a5 14. a3 Rfd8 15. Qg2 c4 16. dxc4 a4 17. Ba2 Nxc4 18. Kh1 b5 19. Rg1 g6 20. Bg5 With a strong attack for white.

No doubt black could improve somewhere, but it seems to me that white's position is much easier to play. 

Toppy  Smiley



I agree.  I think there's a good case for 5...a6, preserving the bishop.
  
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KG Modern Defense
Reply #40 - 06/02/07 at 13:30:14
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blueguitar322 wrote on 06/02/07 at 03:09:50:
There's a bunch of critical lines in the KG, whether 3 Nf3 or 3 Bc4. If you want one line against both 3rd move options, there is:
  • 2...d5 3 exd5 exf4 (Modern Defense) is one of the most solid and simple ways of meeting the KG. Black lowers his risk at the cost of the gambit pawn, and it's a drawish (though only for the KG!) battle between White's better structure and Black's active pieces. It's not really passive, though it's not nearly as sharp as other KG battle lines. It's very much a typical Karpov line as Black.


    Out of the above, I think the first (your line) is the best. However: since I know the KG fairly well, at least compared to other lines, I'm comfortable meeting it with this repetoire, which I think is objectively better than anything above:
    • 3 Nf3 g5! meeting 4 Bc4 with 4...Bg7! (Hanstein), 4 Nc3 with 4...Nc6! (Pierce or Hamppe-Allgaier), and 4 d4 with 4...g4 5 Bxf4 gxf3 6 Qxf3 Nc6! (Rosentreter).
    • 3 Bc4 Nc6! and now 4 Nf3 transposes to Hanstein and 4 d4 Nf6! has the reputation on ChessPub of being the strongest line against the Bishop's Gambit.


    Dave


Thanks, Dave, your reply is greatly appreciated. It seems possible, as an amateur, to know only a couple of openings systems in real depth. I know the C67 Berlin RL in that way. But occasionally in correspondence chess, I have to face the KG. 
  Former correspondence World Champion Vytas Palciauskas gave us all an opening lesson in this KG line in CCLA-Palciauska 2004-2005: 1e4, e5; 2 f4, exf; 3 Nf3, g5; (These moves were mandated). 4 h4, g4; 5 Ne5, Nf6; 6 Bc4, d5; 7 exd, Bd6; 8 d4, 0-0; 9 Bxf4, Nh5; 10 g3, f6; 11 Nxg4, Qe8ch; 12 Kd2, Nxf4; 13 gxf, Qe4; (By now, it was clear to me that White was worse) 14 Kx3, b5; 15 Bxb5, Kh8; 16 Nd3, c5; 17 dxc (I was ready to resign as White here), Nxc6; 18 Bxc6, Qxc6ch; 19 Nc4, Ba6; 20 b3, Bxc4; 21 bxc, Rab8; 22 a3, Bxf4; 23 Rf1, Qc7; 24 Kd3, f5; 25 Rxf4 and Black won shortly.
  Any ideas where White went wrong?
« Last Edit: 06/02/07 at 16:55:33 by cma6 »  
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Re: KG convert
Reply #39 - 06/02/07 at 03:09:50
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There's a bunch of critical lines in the KG, whether 3 Nf3 or 3 Bc4. If you want one line against both 3rd move options, there is:
  • 2...d5 3 exd5 exf4 (Modern Defense) is one of the most solid and simple ways of meeting the KG. Black lowers his risk at the cost of the gambit pawn, and it's a drawish (though only for the KG!) battle between White's better structure and Black's active pieces. It's not really passive, though it's not nearly as sharp as other KG battle lines. It's very much a typical Karpov line as Black.
  • 2...Bc5 3 Nf3 d6 (Classical Declined) can be played either dynamically (4 Nc3) or sharply (4 c3). This defense was recommended by Marin and Davies their recent repetoire books. Probably not as challenging as Black's other options thanks to 4 Nc3 Nf6 5 Bc4 Nc6 6 d3 Bg4 7 Na4 O-O (both Davies' and Marin's recommendation) 8 Nxc5 dxc5 9 O-O Qd6 10 Qd2!
  • 2...d5 3 exd5 c6 (Nimzowitsch Counter-Gambit) can be similar to some Modern Defense games, with a good number of transpositions. I rarely run into it so I'm a bit rusty on any theoretical verdicts, but I'd feel comfortable saying White gets a slight pull as in the Modern.
  • 2...d5 3 exd5 e4 (Falkbeer Counter-Gambit) where Black tries to "one-up" White's gambit with one of his own. Play can be sharp, but unlike the other sharp lines, material is equal (or Black is down a pawn).


Out of the above, I think the first (your line) is the best. However: since I know the KG fairly well, at least compared to other lines, I'm comfortable meeting it with this repetoire, which I think is objectively better than anything above:
  • 3 Nf3 g5! meeting 4 Bc4 with 4...Bg7! (Hanstein), 4 Nc3 with 4...Nc6! (Pierce or Hamppe-Allgaier), and 4 d4 with 4...g4 5 Bxf4 gxf3 6 Qxf3 Nc6! (Rosentreter).
  • 3 Bc4 Nc6! and now 4 Nf3 transposes to Hanstein and 4 d4 Nf6! has the reputation on ChessPub of being the strongest line against the Bishop's Gambit.


Dave
  
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