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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Easy Advantage for White in the Center-Counter? (Read 7385 times)
mad_knight
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Re: Easy Advantage for White in the Center-Counter
Reply #12 - 04/07/07 at 19:17:27
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Oops, found out I already brought out the matter in an earlier post Roll Eyes

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1166566339/5#5

I don't suppose things have changed much in the meantime?

Topnotch, if you read this, what do you think of the lukewarm (at best) reaction to your post in this thread? Have you ever played this line yourself and if so, how did it go?

I'd really be interested to know

Smiley
  
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mad_knight
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Re: Easy Advantage for White in the Center-Counter
Reply #11 - 04/07/07 at 16:05:11
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parisestmagique wrote on 03/28/07 at 07:21:43:
Maybe but my problem is how to get an edge against 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5.


If you like the variation under discussion in this thread, you may want to try the following setup (after 3 ...Qa5):  

4 Bc4 Nf6; 5 d3 c6; 6 Bd2 Qc7; 7 Nge2 Bf5; 8 Ng3 Bg6; 9 Qe2 e6; 10 f4 Bd6

A full discussion of this line appears in GM Andy Martin's "Essential Center-Counter, A Practical Guide for Black", in which he says "I regard this as possibly White's most dangerous try against the modern Center-Counter, particularly lines where Black intends ...Bf5". Pretty impressive stuff I'd say, coming from a leading connoisseur of this defence... Grin

Given pawn structure and piece placement, this setup also looks like a perfect companion to the "Alekhine" line which is the subject of this thread.  Unfortunately, I haven't been able to try it out in practice yet but will certainly do so if given an opportunity.   

Therefore, I'd also like to hear what the other members of this forum think about this line and what's their practical experience with it has been. Thanks a bunch! Smiley
  
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Dji
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Re: Easy Advantage for White in the Center-Counter
Reply #10 - 04/02/07 at 17:49:32
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Maybe white have some advantage after 3.Nc3 Nxd5 4.Bc4 Nxc3
but the main line is 4.Bc4 Nb6 5.Bb3 Nc6 6.Nf3 Bf5 and perso I prefer 4.Bc4 c6!? and i quite sure that both are stronger than 4...Nxc3
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Easy Advantage for White in the Center-Counter
Reply #9 - 03/29/07 at 09:27:52
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Burgess likes 5...c5 6 Qh5 for White, saying that the compensation is inadequate after 6...c4. The line I had in mind actually occurs after 5...Nc6 6 Qf3. I've been meaning for a long time to annotate the game for an update. This thread will remind me to do it this month, if John W doesn't mind.
  
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MNb
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Re: Easy Advantage for White in the Center-Counter
Reply #8 - 03/28/07 at 21:11:53
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Time to get one of my favourite opening books in: Die Aljechin Verteidigung by Siebenhaar, Delnef and Ottstadt (1986). More than 20 pages on 4.Bc4 !
They think 4...Nxc3 5.Qf3 e6 6.dxc3 Nc6 7.Bf4 Bd6 equal because of Bellon-Pomar, Orense 1975.
After 4...Nb6 5.Bb3 c5 they give 6.d3 (6.Qh5 c4 Milner Barry-Kottnauer, England 1974; Black played 8...Nc6 iso 8...Bd7) Nc6 7.Qf3 e6 8.Qg3 += because of Zinn-Bindrich, DDR 1977.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Easy Advantage for White in the Center-Counter
Reply #7 - 03/28/07 at 17:41:04
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kevinludwig wrote on 03/28/07 at 16:41:17:
I'm also interested in Burgess flawed line. I used to play the Alekhine, and I still do on occasion in blitz. If I remember right, Burgess gives: 1. e4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. exd5 Nxd5 4. Bc4 Nb6 5. Bb3 c5, when black is threatening 6. ...c4 winning the bishop. So white has to play something like 6. c3 or 6. d3. He might have also given another plan besides 5. ...c5 but I never learned it...


Hmm, the mystery of the flawed line.  Shocked   

Could it be 6.Qh5!? - though 6...c4 7.Bxc4 Nxc4 8.Qb5+ Bd7 9.Qxc4 Bc6 looks like comp, and after a peek at the game examples the comp even seems excellent... So, could 5...c5 really be flawed or was John talking about another line??
  
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kevinludwig
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Re: Easy Advantage for White in the Center-Counter
Reply #6 - 03/28/07 at 16:41:17
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I'm also interested in Burgess flawed line. I used to play the Alekhine, and I still do on occasion in blitz. If I remember right, Burgess gives: 1. e4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. exd5 Nxd5 4. Bc4 Nb6 5. Bb3 c5, when black is threatening 6. ...c4 winning the bishop. So white has to play something like 6. c3 or 6. d3. He might have also given another plan besides 5. ...c5 but I never learned it...
  
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zoo
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Re: Easy Advantage for White in the Center-Counter
Reply #5 - 03/28/07 at 11:20:36
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I thought that 4...Nb6 was quite playable after 1. e4 d5 2. ed Nf6 3. Nc3 Nxd5 4. Bc4, do you think White has an advantage here, and is the burgess (flawed) line dealing with this variation ?
  
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Re: Easy Advantage for White in the Center-Counter
Reply #4 - 03/28/07 at 10:12:43
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As IM Cox points out, if you DO like this line against the Centre-Counter, you can save preparation time by also using it against the Alekhine, ie 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5 Nxd5 4.Bc4 etc.
This was certainly what attracted me to the line
  
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Re: Easy Advantage for White in the Center-Counter
Reply #3 - 03/28/07 at 09:53:02
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I always think of this rather as a variation of the Alekhine. It (ie 4 Bc4) does have a certain amount of force in that the line given against it for Black in Burgess' Complete Alekhine loses almost by force. I don't know about 6 dxc3 though. It may well be a good move, certainly a logical try.
  
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Re: Easy Advantage for White in the Center-Counter
Reply #2 - 03/28/07 at 09:49:57
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everalexfor wrote on 03/28/07 at 06:08:37:
Hey I just wanted some opinions on what I feel is an easy way for white to get a lasting advantage in the Center Counter.  After 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6, I feel that 3.Nc3 is the best move, followed by 3..Nxd5 4.Bc4 Nxc3 5.Qf3 e6.  At this point all the books say that 6.Qxc3 =.  However, I have found that personally as white I feel that I have a strong advantage with 6.dxc3!  By taking the Knight with my d pawn I can open a line for my bishop without loss of time.  I am much further developed than black is.  I don't think I have ever lost with this variation (yet).  Thoughts or comments? I think this is a killer variation for white's usage!

In my experience Black is much more likely to play 4...Nb6, 4...c6 or 4...Nf6 (I've even faced 4...e6). I think Nc3 followed by Bc4 can be a good surprise weapon but doesn't amount to much at all if Black is prepared.
  
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parisestmagique
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Re: Easy Advantage for White in the Center-Counter
Reply #1 - 03/28/07 at 07:21:43
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Maybe but my problem is how to get an edge against 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5.
  
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everalexfor
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Easy Advantage for White in the Center-Counter?
03/28/07 at 06:08:37
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Hey I just wanted some opinions on what I feel is an easy way for white to get a lasting advantage in the Center Counter.  After 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6, I feel that 3.Nc3 is the best move, followed by 3..Nxd5 4.Bc4 Nxc3 5.Qf3 e6.  At this point all the books say that 6.Qxc3 =.  However, I have found that personally as white I feel that I have a strong advantage with 6.dxc3!  By taking the Knight with my d pawn I can open a line for my bishop without loss of time.  I am much further developed than black is.  I don't think I have ever lost with this variation (yet).  Thoughts or comments? I think this is a killer variation for white's usage!
  
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