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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The italian game against the two knights defense (Read 11321 times)
Willempie
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Re: The italian game against the two knights defen
Reply #29 - 04/17/07 at 18:39:45
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The analysis is somewhere in this forum (I think) and in a book which is prolly somewhere in a box (just moved), so sorry
What I do know is that in many variations it can be helpful to have the option of moving the bishop to e2.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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megazord
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Re: The italian game against the two knights defen
Reply #28 - 04/17/07 at 16:36:51
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How can you think that Bc4 is better, but not put any proof?  Why is the move good, please put some analysis.  Thanks.
  
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Willempie
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Re: The italian game against the two knights defen
Reply #27 - 04/17/07 at 15:51:04
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Markovich wrote on 04/17/07 at 15:09:43:
I consider the Traxler just plain bad after 5. Bxf7+ and then 6. Bb3 or 6. Bd5.  We've been over this, of course.  I would never play 5. Nxf7, particularly since I doubt that it wins.

I think 6.Bc4 may be even stronger. There must be some analysis on that here somewhere, though I cant find it.
  

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Re: The italian game against the two knights defen
Reply #26 - 04/17/07 at 15:09:43
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MNb wrote on 04/17/07 at 02:46:14:
See the link I gave above. Markovich thinks White's game easier to play after 8.Ne4 etcetera, though the resulting position might be equal.
Short and Beljavsky only play the Traxler at "fun" occasions like the Spartakiad - when Karpov choose the Italian instead of his normal Ruy Lopez.


Yeah, as I recall, the critical Fritz line (with 8...Ne6! -- Berliner's attack looks very doubtful to me) leads to an ending where White has two pawn islands and Black has three, including isolated a- and c-pawns.  To defend such an ending is not really why I play 1...e5, but perhaps Black is ultimately equal.  I wish a stronger player would give his opionion on this. Personally as White, I would play on and on, since there appears to be scant risk of White's losing. 

But this is why I think that 5...Na5 is the most correct.  However I think that 5...b5 is a great move for young and improving players to play, and I have my students playing it, premised mostly on their opponents' never knowing White's optimal course of action.  It's nice that MNb's 8...Ne6 analysis is there in case they do, since Black develops a beautiful game against White's merely intuitive replies. There is also the speculative 6. Bf1 h6!?  7. Nxf7! Kxf7  8. dxc6 Bc5  9. Be2! h5!? or 9...Ne4!? though objectively it seems that Black doesn't have enough in either case.

I consider the Traxler just plain bad after 5. Bxf7+ and then 6. Bb3 or 6. Bd5.  We've been over this, of course.  I would never play 5. Nxf7, particularly since I doubt that it wins.
« Last Edit: 04/17/07 at 19:55:48 by Markovich »  

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MNb
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Re: The italian game against the two knights defen
Reply #25 - 04/17/07 at 02:46:14
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See the link I gave above. Markovich thinks White's game easier to play after 8.Ne4 etcetera, though the resulting position might be equal.
Short and Beljavsky only play the Traxler at "fun" occasions like the Spartakiad - when Karpov choose the Italian instead of his normal Ruy Lopez.
  

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megazord
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Re: The italian game against the two knights defen
Reply #24 - 04/17/07 at 01:22:55
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Okay I have been looking at this 4.Ng5 system quite a bit lately. 
Markovich, you seem to be backing this system quite a lot, what lines do you play against the traxler?  I have seen some pretty strong GM's play the it. GM's Short and Beliavsky.  Also does white obtain an advantage in the 8...Ne6 variation of the fritz?
  
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Re: The italian game against the two knights defen
Reply #23 - 04/16/07 at 23:13:32
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Hello everyone, first post here! What a great forum.

That's an interesting opinion Markovich, and you may be right. d3 and d4 don't give much in the way of advantage but I'm not personally not sure that Ng5 brings an advantage either. I agree that it is the most testing move though.

I remember when I first started learning opening theory (I had no teacher or anything) and I played Ng5. It was great since a few players would blow up completely and play h6, or some would let me play the Fried Liver or Lolli. Also, my old material grubbing engine loved white and said the Fritz was pure losing! Eventually I stopped playing it after my opponents came prepared with Na5 or Nd4/b5 and I had to memorize reams of theory just to give the initiative over. White has to be ready for the Traxler too, and 5...Na5 6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.Qe2 Be7 and Bd6.

Back to the realm of objectivity. Which 8th move in the Fritz do you think is best for white?

8.cxd4 Qxg5 9.Bxb5+ Kd8 10.Qf3 exd4 11.Bc6 Nb4 as far as I knew this was good for black but it's possible I'm not up to date on a new development in this or 10.0-0.

8.Ne4 Ne6 9.Bxb5+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Qxd7 11.0-0 Be7 or f5 with equality IMO but I see the link given on this thread and there is a lot of good information there.

Or maybe even 8.h4 or 8.Nxf7 but I can't say that I've investigated these closely.

Well I guess that does it for now, I hope it's okay to post this since it's not italian game! And again, great to be here.
  
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MNb
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Re: The italian game against the two knights defen
Reply #22 - 04/16/07 at 20:30:52
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To my shame I cannot reproduce the results  Embarrassed and I don't know anymore which position I used as a filter. To get good results though, you should not concentrate on one particular variation. Eg it is irrelevant if the white pawn is on h2 or h3.
At the other hand I could not find any Sokolov game (Piket, Karpov, yes).
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Willempie
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Re: The italian game against the two knights defen
Reply #21 - 04/16/07 at 09:07:34
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MNb wrote on 04/13/07 at 20:25:07:
Willempie wrote on 04/13/07 at 12:51:13:
Plus look at this one. I havent analyzed it yet, but the queen sac looks amazing (if correct). I think white fell off his chair after seeing move 14 Grin
[Event "Turin ol (Men) 37th"]
[Site "Turin"]
[Date "2006.05.21"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Vajda,Levente"]
[Black "Sutovsky,Emil"]
[Result "0-1"]


Nice game, but it does not really explain two points:
1) strong players seem to disagree with you.
2) White's results are far above average.

Maybe you should write an article for NIC on this subject? Might convince all those 2500+ guys, who have committed the sin you warn for.  Wink

To be honest I dont see those statistics you mention, but maybe I am looking at the wrong variation. Sokolov doesnt seem to have any particular fear for Bg5 for example as he quite often castles "too early" (according to your reasoning).
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: The italian game against the two knights defen
Reply #20 - 04/15/07 at 16:24:43
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Wow!  I cant believe I have gotten this out of touch with an opening I play.  It is probably because  I have switched to the modern defense, but I still play e5 once in a while.  I am glad you posted that MNb.  Now I need to do some more research.
  
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Re: The italian game against the two knights defen
Reply #19 - 04/15/07 at 02:07:33
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megazord wrote on 04/14/07 at 14:45:34:
I have not looked at this thread in a couple of days and it seem that you guys have been busy.  Okay here is my 2 cents on 4.Ng5.  4.Ng5 leads to positions where black seems to be dictating the play.  I am of course speaking of only when black plays the most challenging line to 4.Ng5.  GM Hans Berliner showed how black should play agaisnt the 4.Ng5.  I would also like to point out that 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5  also leads to positions where black's lead in development make the game completely equal.  Many of you seem to think that 4.Ng5 is white's most challenging move, but with two systemts that give black a lead in development and allow him to equalize, I can hardly agree with you.  One warning about the berliner variation though, it is not played all that much on the GM level because in many of the lines black's best is to sacrifice material and many GM's probably feel that it is unecessary to play so aggressive when they could also get a good game from the 5...Na5 lines.  As you can probably tell I prefer the complexity of the berliner variation.  I thnk the berliner is also known as the olav ovalstadt variation.


Words, words, words.  I agree that Black can, with some difficulty, hold his own after 4. Ng5!  I don't agree that it's a piece of cake.  Black doesn't have two systems, of which I am aware, but only 5...Na5 is adequate.  Black is fighting for the half point, White for the whole point (especially, MnB, in that Fritz line of yours).  So White is White after 4. Ng5, and I suspect his chances are no worse, and perhaps a little better than in the initial position.  I know, more words, but thats my point of view.


  

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MNb
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Re: The italian game against the two knights defen
Reply #18 - 04/14/07 at 20:10:25
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A few remarks: 5...Nd4 is not the Berliner Variation. It is invented by Alexander Fritz, a long time before Berliner showed up. These days the move order 5...b5 (Ulvestadt to be correct) 6.Bf1 Nd4 is considered more precise.
Neither is the piece sac 8...Qh4 invented by Berliner, though he did some interesting analysis on it and 9...Bg4 might be his move. These days 8...Qh4? is considered to be refuted. Instead 8...Ne6 might lead to equality, though Markovich still sees some chances for White.

See http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1122121981/0#0

Take a look here as well:

http://www.chesscafe.com/archives/archives.htm#The%20Kibitzer

eg november 2005, but there are several others on this subject.
The author is a strong corr (OTB he is no weakling either) player and has put all this Italian stuff in practice for some 20 years or so.
« Last Edit: 04/15/07 at 15:02:14 by MNb »  

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Re: The italian game against the two knights defen
Reply #17 - 04/14/07 at 15:07:12
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Here is a game I played in Dusseldorf 3 years ago, I was black the moves are as follow:


Hagen(1983) - Megazord(2204)
1.  e4         e5      
  2.  Nf3        Nc6      
  3.  Bc4        Nf6      
  4.  Ng5       d5      
  5.  exd5      Nd4      
  6.  c3         b5       
  7.  Bf1        Nxd5      
  8.  Ne4      Qh4       
  9.  Ng3      Bg4      
10.  f3        e4      
11.  cxd4     Bd6      
12.  Bxb5+  Kd8      
13.  O-O      exf3    
14.  Rxf3     Rb8      
15.  Be2      Bxf3    
16.  Bxf3     Nb4       
17.  d3        Re8      
18.  Nc3      Qxd4+   
19.  Kh1      Nxd3    
20.  Nce4     Bxg3      
21.  Bg5+    f6       
22.  hxg3    Rxe4      
      White resigns 0-1

This is a pretty typical game from this variation.  Now opponent made some pretty obvious tactical erros but the time control was G/25, which is a pretty fast time control.
  
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Re: The italian game against the two knights defen
Reply #16 - 04/14/07 at 14:45:34
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I have not looked at this thread in a couple of days and it seem that you guys have been busy.  Okay here is my 2 cents on 4.Ng5.  4.Ng5 leads to positions where black seems to be dictating the play.  I am of course speaking of only when black plays the most challenging line to 4.Ng5.  GM Hans Berliner showed how black should play agaisnt the 4.Ng5.  I would also like to point out that 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5  also leads to positions where black's lead in development make the game completely equal.  Many of you seem to think that 4.Ng5 is white's most challenging move, but with two systemts that give black a lead in development and allow him to equalize, I can hardly agree with you.  One warning about the berliner variation though, it is not played all that much on the GM level because in many of the lines black's best is to sacrifice material and many GM's probably feel that it is unecessary to play so aggressive when they could also get a good game from the 5...Na5 lines.  As you can probably tell I prefer the complexity of the berliner variation.  I thnk the berliner is also known as the olav ovalstadt variation.

[Event "corr-5"]
[Site "corr-5"]
[Date "1965.??.??"]
[EventDate "?"]
[Round "?"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Y Estrin"]
[Black "H Berliner"]
[ECO "C57"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "84"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 Nd4 7.c3 Nxd5 8.Ne4
Qh4 9.Ng3 Bg4 10.f3 e4 11.cxd4 Bd6 12.Bxb5+ Kd8 13.O-O exf3 14.Rxf3 Rb8
15.Be2 Bxf3 16.Bxf3 Qxd4+ 17.Kh1 Bxg3 18.hxg3 Rb6 19.d3 Ne3 20.Bxe3 Qxe3
21.Bg4 h5 22.Bh3 g5 23.Nd2 g4 24.Nc4 Qxg3 25.Nxb6 gxh3 26.Qf3 hxg2+
27.Qxg2 Qxg2+ 28.Kxg2 cxb6 29.Rf1 Ke7 30.Re1+ Kd6 31.Rf1 Rc8 32.Rxf7 Rc7
33.Rf2 Ke5 34.a4 Kd4 35.a5 Kxd3 36.Rf3+ Kc2 37.b4 b5 38.a6 Rc4 39.Rf7
Rxb4 40.Rb7 Rg4+ 41.Kf3 b4 42.Rxa7 b3 0-1

  
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MNb
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Re: The italian game against the two knights defen
Reply #15 - 04/13/07 at 20:25:07
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Willempie wrote on 04/13/07 at 12:51:13:
Plus look at this one. I havent analyzed it yet, but the queen sac looks amazing (if correct). I think white fell off his chair after seeing move 14 Grin
[Event "Turin ol (Men) 37th"]
[Site "Turin"]
[Date "2006.05.21"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Vajda,Levente"]
[Black "Sutovsky,Emil"]
[Result "0-1"]


Nice game, but it does not really explain two points:
1) strong players seem to disagree with you.
2) White's results are far above average.

Maybe you should write an article for NIC on this subject? Might convince all those 2500+ guys, who have committed the sin you warn for.  Wink
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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