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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Nimzo or King's Indian (Read 26261 times)
exigentsky
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Re: Nimzo or King's Indian
Reply #5 - 05/21/07 at 03:26:56
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I just looked at Anand's games and it seems he plays both the Nimzo/QID and Najdorf with great success. (this was pretty nice: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1250407) Korchnoi has also played the QID/Nimzo and he also tries to put up a real fight as Black. Jan Tinnman also seems to have no problem winning in both the QID and the Nimzo. I know these players try to win as Black and so it is probably not as drawish as I expected if played well and aggressively.
  
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exigentsky
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Re: Nimzo or King's Indian
Reply #4 - 05/21/07 at 02:51:31
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Well, what I meant by damage was that against the weak opponents I played in non-critical lines, I tended to win a bit more quickly and sometimes even by mate. In the Nimzo and QID, it took more time and I often got a completely winning material advantage but no quick mate. Of course, this is not relevant to the strength of an opening, but I thought it *might* mean that the KID can be more effective if Black seizes the initiative. I really haven't played it enough to be convinced of this and I've certainly seen a number of quick and devastating Black wins in the Nimzo/QID. I suppose you don't think this is true.

If I could always play the Nimzo, it wouldn't even be a contest between the KID because the Nimzo generates about the same winning chances with far less risk. My main concern with the Nimzo is indeed what you do. White can avoid it with Nf3 and while I don't think this is objectively better or worse, it seems like it is harder to obtain a decisive result. Still, I have very little knowledge of the QID and maybe my impressions are wrong. (please tell me)

Still, it seems there are plenty of interesting ways to play the QID if a decisive result is important. For example: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. g3 Ba6 5. b3 b5!?

BTW: I know I don't have to play the QID, but isn't it considered the best response? Moreover, the QGD and the Bogo (especially with Nbd2) seem at least equally drawish? And, I still don't quite trust the Benoni even with Nf3. But maybe I'm wrong here too. I just looked through the database a bit.
  
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HgMan
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Re: Nimzo or King's Indian
Reply #3 - 05/21/07 at 01:16:40
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I don't quite know what "damage" means.  I often think of the Nimzo as very effective in this regard, but the games might involve more grinding than is necessary in the KID.  My feeling is that the KID's reputation precedes it, much to the detriment of people who pick it up.  They see swashbuckling wins by Black (because that's what they find in books and articles) and assume that the KID is great.  It also helps that two of the most charismatic world champions in recent memory played it, too.  As White, I've never had too much trouble against the KID.  Eliminate Black's light-squared bishop, neutralize the other bishop, and press.  I avoid the Nimzo as White.  I think it can put real pressure on White's position, which makes playing for an advantage rather difficult...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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exigentsky
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Re: Nimzo or King's Indian
Reply #2 - 05/21/07 at 00:04:14
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I've looked at a lot of Nimzo/QID games and King's Indian games from Kasparov, Karpov (the fact that he likes the Nimzo/QID makes me a bit fearful, since he also likes the Caro-Kann) and over a dozen other players. I've also played both in at least ten games. I tend to favor the King's Indian in the non-critical lines; it just seems like I can grab the initiative more quickly and do more damage (please correct me if I'm wrong). However, when looking at games with the critical 9. Ne1 or 9. b4 (although maybe an antidote will soon appear or it already has), I would rather play the toughest lines in the Nimzo/QID (if there even is such a line). It seems like Black's kingside attack is not efficient in those lines and White's queenside play is stronger. And of course, there is the fianchetto variation to consider too. So, if I were to always face the objectively toughest lines in both openings, I would clearly play the Nimzo/QID. I hope this isn't too strange and I guess this suggests I should play the Nimzo/QID.

Also, as long as I am completely confident in the opening and know that even in the best lines with the most accurate play White has no tangible advantage, I do not have a problem with learning theory. If I don't have this confidence, like if I were to play a Benoni, I would have a hard time learning theory.

Again, for an active, dynamic ambitious player that wants to be able to win even as Black without undue risk (still wants strong reliable position), what would be the best response to d4? Maybe there is some opening I'm not considering. Does the Slav/Semi-Slav or even QGD offer better winning chances then the Nimzo/QID? How about the Benko, Dutch or QGA? What about the Grunfeld (I'm a bit unsure after the exchange variation with Rb1)? Are these other responses sound enough? What should I do?
  
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HgMan
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Re: Nimzo or King's Indian
Reply #1 - 05/20/07 at 23:11:16
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Well, this is all a bit of a zero-sum game.  Rather than listening to recommendations from others, play through some games and decide which positions feel more comfortable.  For the KID, why not look at Kasparov's games, and for the Nimzo, Karpov's?

For what it's worth, I'm inclined to think that the Nimzo/QID will stand up better under theoretical scrutiny, and that the KID could prove tricky to maintain, but if you're also playing the Najdorf, then theoretical study doesn't sound as though it's something that bothers you.  I guess it also depends on your playing strength and experience.  My instinct is that the Nimzo would be better for your chess...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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exigentsky
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Nimzo or King's Indian
05/20/07 at 21:22:26
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Here's what I want from an opening as Black:

- completely sound and reliable.
- unbalanced, flexible and dynamic
- offers ample winning chances and opportunities to seize the initiative if White goes wrong

Against e4, I'm already sure I want to play the Sicilian and out of the Kan, Classical, Scheveningen, Sveshnikov and Najdorf, I currently prefer the Najdorf. Against d4, I am not sure what to play. However, the Indian defenses seem to offer the best winning chances while still being sound and so it's between the King's Indian and Nimzo/Queen's Indian. The King's Indian seems to offer good winning chances with the kingside attack, but 9. Ne1 and 9.b4 may be too much for Black to handle if he still wants to play for a win. The Nimzo/QID is perfectly sound but I'm not sure if it's dynamic enough and offers enough winning chances compared to the KID. Anyway, I like most of the positions in the KID and in the Nimzo/QID, but I can't make up my mind as to which suits me better. 

Please help me. To what kind of player do these openings appeal to? What do you think would be best for a player like me?

  
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