exigentsky wrote on 05/23/07 at 20:10:14:


And here's another: 3...c5 4.Nf3 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Qb6 6.Bg2 Bc5 7.e3 Nc6 8.0-0 Nxd4 9.exd4 Bxd4 10.Nc3 with excellent compensation.  I wouldn't be so quick to comdemn White's chances after 3...c5, if I were you, whether with 4.d5 or 4.Nf3; nor would I be so ready to dismiss Black's chances in the main lines of the Catalan.

There are some, I admit, who think that 3...c5 is the berries; I'm not so sure.  3...c5 is a good move, whether a better one than 3...d5 I am not sure.  But Black is still Black in either case, I opine.

exigentsky wrote on 05/20/07 at 21:22:26:


The famous trainer Mikhail Shereshevsky made an interesting comment here in his famous "Conveyor" book:

"I have noticed something very peculiar - the chessplayers that play only the King's Indian defence for Black, after having been through the Nimzo, start playing the King's Indian on an entirely different, much higher level than before."

By the way, to complement the Nimzo, Shereshevsky's pupils (many of whom became masters or grandmaster) were taught various light-squared strategies in the Bogo and Ragozin, rather than the QID.

Some patzers disagree:

[Event "Amber-rapid 16th"]
[Site "Monte Carlo"]
[Date "2007.03.17"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Van Wely,Loek"]
[Black "Anand,Viswanathan"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "E15"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 b6 4.g3 Ba6 5.b3 Bb4+ 6.Bd2 Be7 7.Nc3 0-0 8.Rc1 Ba3 
9.Rb1 c5 10.Bg2 d5 11.0-0 Nc6 12.cxd5 Nxd5 13.Nxd5 exd5 14.Bc3 Qe7 15.Re1 Rfd8 16.Qd2 Bb5 
17.e3 a5 18.Red1 Ra7 19.Bb2 Bb4 20.Qc2 a4 21.Qf5 a3 22.Ba1 Be2 23.Rdc1 Qe4 24.Qh5 g6 
25.Qh6 Bxf3 26.Bxf3 Qxf3 27.dxc5 d4 28.cxb6 Rb7 29.exd4 Bf8 30.Qh4 Be7 31.Qh6 Bf6 32.Rc3 Qe4 
33.Rbc1 Rxb6 34.Re3 Qf5 35.d5 Nb4 36.Rce1 Rbb8 37.Re5 Bxe5 38.Bxe5 f6 39.Bxb8 Nd3 40.Re2 Rxb8 
41.Qe3 Qxd5 42.Rd2 Rd8 43.Qe7 Qd6 44.Qe4 Qd5 45.Qe7 Rc8 46.Rd1 Qf5 47.Qa7 Qf3 48.Rf1 Ra8 
49.Qe7 Ne5 50.Rc1 Rf8 51.Qxa3 Qe4 52.Rc7 Nf3+ 53.Kf1 Nd2+ 0-1

[Event "Corus"]
[Site "Wijk aan Zee"]
[Date "2005.01.15"]
[Round "10"]
[White "Topalov,Veselin"]
[Black "Polgar,Judit"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "E15"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 b6 4.g3 Ba6 5.b3 Bb4+ 6.Bd2 Be7 7.Nc3 0-0 8.Rc1 d5 
9.cxd5 Nxd5 10.Nxd5 exd5 11.Bg2 Re8 12.Rc2 Bd6 13.Bg5 Bb4+ 14.Kf1 f6 15.Bf4 Nd7 16.Ne1 c6 
17.Nd3 Bxd3 18.Qxd3 Rc8 19.Bh3 g6 20.a3 Bf8 21.e3 Qe7 22.Bg4 g5 23.Qf5 gxf4 24.gxf4 Kh8 
25.Rg1 Rc7 26.Bf3 Nb8 27.Rg3 Qd6 28.b4 b5 29.Rc1 a5 30.bxa5 Qxa3 31.Rc5 Rg7 32.Bh5 Rd8 
33.Qxf6 Qxa5 34.Rc2 b4 35.Ra2 Qc7 36.Be2 Qe7 37.Qf5 Qe4 38.Qxe4 dxe4 39.Ra8 b3 40.Bc4 b2 
41.Ba2 c5 42.dxc5 b1=Q+ 43.Bxb1 Rd1+ 44.Kg2 Rxb1 45.Ra4 Re7 46.Rg5 Nc6 47.Ra6 Re6 48.h4 Be7 
49.f5 Rf6 50.Rg4 Rb4 51.Ra8+ Rf8 52.Rxf8+ Bxf8 53.f6 Ne5 0-1

Oh sure, against c5 there is both d5 and Nf3, but as I've already analyzed previously, both give an equal and active game. Out of those two, Nf3 seems the most challenging to me. Definitely more exciting and with better winning chances than a Bogo. (although I do have some prior knowledge of Bogo).

It's interesting that you don't consider the Nimzo/QID a completely light square opening, although it usually is. I think if White plays too pasively, Black tends to especially focus on dark squares, like with c5. But yes, it is so varied it perhaps can't be categorized.

BTW: I've decided on the Nimzo/QID after all unless something suddenly changes my mind. (which is not totally unlikely  ) The reason being that the Nimzo/QID offers good winning chances at minimal risk and they are more flexible with more varied plans. I can play a very stodgy game or a very aggressive game, such as with a b5 gambit after Bxc3 and Qxc3 in the Nimzo. From a purely psychological point of view, it also seems that d4 players like to see it the least. (with Slav a close second) Lastly, my own record vs the QID with the fianchetto variation is very healthy. (but I start with c4) It's almost like a Catalan in the sense that White enjoys an edge without real risk and Black has little counterplay by comparison.

HgMan wrote on 05/23/07 at 20:50:20:


Honestly, I think both of the positions I gave you are equal or favor Black (where he has great activity and winning chances) and the results support this with both engine and human games. I often play the Catalan from an English move order and I feel this way.

Against Nc3 in the b5 line, b4 Na4 Bb7/d6 is easy for Black. If Nc3 instead of Bg2 in the Nf3 line, 8. Na4 (which may indeed be a bit better) Qa5+ (or Bb4) 9. Bd2 Bb4 10. Nc3 Qb6 11. a3 Be7 12. Na4 Qd8/Qc7  is equal. 3. g3 is just not challenging after c5. I need much more help after 3. e3, 3. a3. (although those are surely no more challenging objectively)

HgMan wrote on 05/23/07 at 12:38:44:



Well, on 3. g3, I prefer Black after c5. I would NEVER play White if such a position was possible. Here's one line: 3... c5 4. Nf3 cxd4 5. Nxd4 Qb6 6. Bg2 Bc5 7. e3 Nc6 8 Nb3 Be7/Bb4+ So what if White plays the best move, d5? 4.... exd5 5. cxd5 b5! 6. Bg2 d6 7. b4 (Nf3 Be7) Na6 (just one good way) 8. bxc5 Nxc5 9. Nf3 Bb7

As for 3. a3 and 3. e3, would it be good to just play b6 against both? (My fears regarding d5 after b6 in the a3 line were unfounded because after Nc3, I play d5 to stop White.)  I've also considered c5 against a3 and e3, but it seems to me that I would play b6 anyway after 4. e3 in the a3 line and after Nf3 or Nc3 in the c5 line. So would it be best to play b6 straight away? Or is there something better? And yes, they are not very frequent, but they are annoying.

BTW: Nice game!

Have a look at the QID 4.e3 thread for ideas.

The Benoni is very easy to play--the ideas of the opening are fairly straightforward.  I remember having good early success just after I adopted it.  That said, I don't think 3...c5 upsets the Catalan player in me.  Black has managed to advance c7-c5, which is often a key debate in the Catalan, but I see no reason not to like White's game.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the QGD, though.  Some of the most important and instructive queenside openings are there.  It's not dry or stale at all.  There's a good reason why 3...d5 is a rather common response to 1.d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3.Nf3.

And I could be wrong, but I don't imagine you would face 3.a3 with much frequency...

Should I learn the QGD and the Benoni (or is it unnecessary to learn more of the Benon or QGDi than I use?) first and then maybe come back to the Nimzo/QID? Transpositions abound and in many cases it seems c5/d5 are good moves. (ie against 3. g3, 3. a3 3. e3)

BTW: I'm not sure how to actively handle 3. e3. I thought of Bb4, but Bd2 seems good for White.