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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Best defence against 1.d4 for dragon player (Read 13175 times)
krugman
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Re: Best defence against 1.d4 for dragon player
Reply #20 - 06/25/07 at 08:39:52
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Oups, sorry, I didn't see that Willempie already recommended the Grunfeld.
Anyhow, this is beyond me why someone would recommend him to play the Slav: of course, the Salv is a great opening, very trendy, but it is soooooo different from the Dragon that I can't see the point.

If I were to recommend a closed opening, it would be the semi-slav which usuallu leads to very complicated games, one could even say wild crazy games in the botvinnik. But there are many dull lines if white wishes so.

I don't really see the appeal of the Benko either. It's all about queenside pressure, and not very varied. The big advantage is that it is easy to grasp. Well, relatively easy of course...
But it's not very "dynamic" in my opinion, and you are never going to attack the king if that's what you like. Never.

This leaves a choice between the Leningrad, the KID, the Benoni and the Grunfeld.

The KID is very complicated and actually very different from the Dragon since the centre tends to be very closed. The only similarity is of course the dragon bishop and that you sometimes get to attack the king. There are also some opposite-side castling variations, in the Saemisch for instance.

The Benoni is a good choice I think, but it is very risky positionnaly speaking and hard to play. Additionnaly, you can't force a benoni.

As to the Grunfeld: there is also the drawback that you can't force a Grunfeld, but I think most of the sidelines tend to give rise to a rather similar game to the main lines, i.e. fluid center, open lines and diagonals...
The Grunfeld it very dynamic, i.e. see the games of Sutovsky and Svidler although it tends to be a rather diffeent kind of dynamism than in the Dragon. Of course, it can also be argued that lots of line lead to queenless middlegames which might not be to everyone's taste.
One advantage of the Grunfeld is that there is an abundant literature, and arguably the best opening book ever written, i.e. "Understanding the Grunfeld" by Jonathan Rowson. There is also a forthcoming book by Dembo which is going to be, I hope, up-to-date. There are also very thorough books by Sakaev and Dearing on the 7. Bc4 and 8. Rb1 lines respectively.

Hope this helps Smiley
  
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Dji
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Re: Best defence against 1.d4 for dragon player
Reply #19 - 06/24/07 at 11:46:51
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krugman wrote on 06/24/07 at 07:01:06:
I am a bit surprised that no one recommended the Grunfeld. Of course, it depends on what kind of positions you like, but in the Grunbfeld you've got very dynamic lines with an open centre and lots of open lines for you g7 bishop.

Of course, there are a lot of lines that end in an endgame, so to speak Smiley
But these are unbalanced endgames, and there are also many unbalanced endgames in the dragon.

For me, the Gurnfeld is THE dynamic opening against 1.d4. I have to admit though that I have always had trouble playing it; but I keep trying.


Yes it's probably the most in the dragon's spirit. Dynamic and undalanced
  

Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
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krugman
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Re: Best defence against 1.d4 for dragon player
Reply #18 - 06/24/07 at 07:01:06
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I am a bit surprised that no one recommended the Grunfeld. Of course, it depends on what kind of positions you like, but in the Grunbfeld you've got very dynamic lines with an open centre and lots of open lines for you g7 bishop.

Of course, there are a lot of lines that end in an endgame, so to speak Smiley
But these are unbalanced endgames, and there are also many unbalanced endgames in the dragon.

For me, the Gurnfeld is THE dynamic opening against 1.d4. I have to admit though that I have always had trouble playing it; but I keep trying.
  
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FightingDragon
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Re: Best defence against 1.d4 for dragon player
Reply #17 - 06/21/07 at 22:33:06
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Thx for all your answers!

I also have Kindermann's book (although only the German edition) and it is really worth the money. Perhaps I will spend some time on the Leningrad again, though some years ago when I played it more often I found the anti-Dutch lines a real pain (especially 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3). For some time I even played the Leningrad only against 1.c4 or 1.Nf3 (1. ... g6 against that).

I will try to focus on the Volga as my main defence against 1.d4 with 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 b5 4.Bg5 Qb6 as the most important side variation. When the Volga works it is really tremendous fun, just like the dragon, but unfortunately it doesn't work always. Maybe that is just a matter of experience?

And as a backup I have the Chigorin (is it the most solid of these 3 openings?), which works well against stronger players, but can be a pain against weaker ones, 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bf4 ... 

What I noticed is that the Benoni really made a strong comeback in grandmaster chess, does anybody know the reason for that? Benoni is also an option, though all the anti-variations after e.g. 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bg5/3.e3/... scare me off, because they are not without poison.
  
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chk
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Re: Best defence against 1.d4 for dragon player
Reply #16 - 06/19/07 at 15:21:27
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I'd second that.. I read 60% of this book past summer and was able to play the Leningrad (plus all these anti-Dutch lines) throughout the season with more success than I was expecting.

The Leningrad is a good choice for players that like active play (I think even better than the KID). However, I agree with Willempie in that you should not expect the defence you ultimately choose to have many similarities with the Dragon, e.g. comparing the Leningrad with the Dragon, I notice that:

a. You have a fianchettoed Bishop, however it acts in a different way,

b. You mostly attack in the K-side.

c. There are other special features in the Leningrand like: no semi-open lines readily available, different use of the King, lots of 'weakening' moves in the K-side, White usually plays with a fiancheto too, the value of each tempo is nothing near the Yugoslav attack, etc. etc.

d. The anti- lines you face are quite different.

All in all I have the feeling that these two openings (and the KID) are for players of the same taste.
  

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Re: Best defence against 1.d4 for dragon player
Reply #15 - 06/19/07 at 11:40:02
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I'd go for the defense you stand the best chances of mastering, which entails -next to personal factors such as liking the positions- the availability of good literature on it. Kindermanns book on the Leningrad seems to have an outstanding reputation...
  
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Re: Best defence against 1.d4 for dragon player
Reply #14 - 06/18/07 at 18:28:11
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/18/07 at 12:24:25:
@Viking:

The KID section here at the Chess Pub has quite a bit of discussion about why theory favors White and what Black should play in various lines.  Suffice it to say that White seems to be winning the theoretical duels in the Saemisch and especially in the Classical right now.  

If you have specific questions on the KID, we can continue those discussions in the relevant threads in that section.

Cheers!

Hi Smyslov_Fan,

My questions were mainly du to;

i)
I am not a subscriber, for the time being, but after Radjabov's performance with the KID in Corus earlier this year - I would have thought the KID to be very much alive.

ii)
I was a bit surprised to see you recommending the Leningrad dutch over the KID. From what you said I came to the conclusion that you felt the Leningrad dutch is in better theoretical shape than the KID... I am not up to date on the lastest theory - I have to admit. You might be right. 

If you are right: Why dont more players prefer the Leningrad? Fashion? I dont hink so. Other unavoidable dutch variations? - maybe.

The Leningrad system is my personal choice btw (I dont play the dragon)...
  
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Re: Best defence against 1.d4 for dragon player
Reply #13 - 06/18/07 at 17:08:19
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I would strongly recommend the Dutch Leningrad, but not solely on the ground of the fianchettoed bishop. Like the Dragon, it's an extremely dynamic opening where black is not merely satisfied with equality, but rather seeks an initiative and active play from the very first move. There are virtually no white lines that lead to easy forced draws or dull equality (like, for example, the London System vs. the KID) and if white attempts to play passively it often leads to a quick and early initiative for black.
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: Best defence against 1.d4 for dragon player
Reply #12 - 06/18/07 at 15:56:51
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/18/07 at 12:24:25:
@Viking:

The KID section here at the Chess Pub has quite a bit of discussion about why theory favors White and what Black should play in various lines.  Suffice it to say that White seems to be winning the theoretical duels in the Saemisch and especially in the Classical right now.  

If you have specific questions on the KID, we can continue those discussions in the relevant threads in that section.

Cheers!



I'd like to take you up on that offer, if you don't mind.  I gave up the Samisch because of the 6...c5 gambit.  If you can demonstrate a good line for White, I'd be much obliged.

Thanks.




  
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Re: Best defence against 1.d4 for dragon player
Reply #11 - 06/18/07 at 14:50:08
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"But to suggest something anyway: If you're a theory addict who likes to constantly check his yugoslav lines, I'd suggest a Benko/Benoni."

I disagree, you have to know some theory to some declined lines and of course the 10...Rb1 line but aside from minimal theory if you have strong understanding of the concepts and ideas behind it then you can get by. That said to have a deep understanding of the Benko you would probably have to go over hundreds and hundreds of games in it due to its complexity... and on top of that most of the things you will learn by going over the games will rarely apply to other openings... except it did give me a real knack for queenside pressure.  Grin
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Best defence against 1.d4 for dragon player
Reply #10 - 06/18/07 at 12:24:25
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@Viking:

The KID section here at the Chess Pub has quite a bit of discussion about why theory favors White and what Black should play in various lines.  Suffice it to say that White seems to be winning the theoretical duels in the Saemisch and especially in the Classical right now.   

If you have specific questions on the KID, we can continue those discussions in the relevant threads in that section.

Cheers!
  
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Re: Best defence against 1.d4 for dragon player
Reply #9 - 06/18/07 at 07:38:57
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JonHecht wrote on 06/18/07 at 06:24:33:
Someone said earlier that they recommended the Benko and I agree. I am a Benko player and have been hearing the call of the dragon lately, but resisted because of all the drawing lines after 0-0-0. 

The drawing lines are the least of your worries if you decide to take it up Wink


Anyways, I dont think I can do much with the original question. I'll just add that it is next to impossible to find a good fit for your 1.e4 defense. You just have to come to grips with the fact that after 1.d4 the game usually is quite different. And that is without even thinking about those annoying people who open 1.Nf3 or 1.c4 (we know who you are Wink). But to suggest something anyway: If you're a theory addict who likes to constantly check his yugoslav lines, I'd suggest a Benko/Benoni. If you just like to unbalance the game in an open way I suggest the Grunfeld. If you like the kingside attack, the kid. And if you like to play "on your own" with great variety in games I suggest the nimzo.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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JonHecht
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Re: Best defence against 1.d4 for dragon player
Reply #8 - 06/18/07 at 06:24:33
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Someone said earlier that they recommended the Benko and I agree. I am a Benko player and have been hearing the call of the dragon lately, but resisted because of all the drawing lines after 0-0-0. 
  
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Re: Best defence against 1.d4 for dragon player
Reply #7 - 06/18/07 at 05:41:17
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/18/07 at 03:28:14:
The most obvious fit for a Dragon player is the KID, but theory doesn't like the KID right now.


It doesnt?
Whats wrong with it?
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Best defence against 1.d4 for dragon player
Reply #6 - 06/18/07 at 03:28:14
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The most obvious fit for a Dragon player is the KID, but theory doesn't like the KID right now.

I like TalJechin's idea of the Leningrad Dutch for Black, but don't really have faith in the Modern Benoni as a long-term answer to 1.d4.

If you play the Accelerated Dragon, you could play 1.d4 g6 (not worrying too much about 2.e4) 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nf3 c5.  That will be worth a few free points and will often transpose to the Maroczy Bind, which shouldn't bother you.

Another interesting opening that is almost playable and has considerable piece-play is the Chigorin, which might be worth a look.  Unfortunately, it doesn't have much that is directly in common with the Dragon.

So right now, I'd recommend the Leningrad Dutch until you've learned all you can about either the Slav or the QID/Nimzo-Indian complex!
  
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