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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Ponziani (Read 16423 times)
MNb
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #12 - 06/21/07 at 22:09:09
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In that case, starting with 11.Nd4 (most comments by Botterill):

Iskov-Hebden, Manchester 1979

11.Nd4 Qe7 12.N2b3 Nxd4 13.cxd4 Bb4+ 14.Kd1?? Nxf2+ 0-1. Botterill suggests 12.Bxd3 Nxd4 13.cxd4 Bxd4 14.Qxd4 Ng3+ 15.Kd1 (in my notes I have 15.Ne4) Nxh1 16.Nf3 "Black has a problem about getting the knight on h1 out, but it is unfortunate that the king is one of White's centralised pieces."

Iskov-Kaiszauri, Oslo 1980

11.Nd4 Bxd4 12.cxd4 Bf5 13.Bxd3 (13.f3? Nb4 -+) Qe7 14.Bb5 0-0-0 15.Bxc6 bxc6 16.Nxe4 dxe4 ("Kaiszauri observes that 16...Bxe4!? was in fact possible as 17.f3?! Qxg7 18.fxe4 allows Qxg2 19.Rf1 Rdf8 20.Qe2 Rxf1+ 21.Qxf2 Qxe4+ 22.Kd1 Qxd4+ 23.Kc2 Rg2 -+. So White should play 17.0-0 Qxg7 18.g3 unclear"; I also have 16...Rde8!?) 17.Qc3 e3?! ("just 17...Rxg7 - Kaiszauri" 17...Qxg7 18.Qxc6 unclear, Good-Bacon, corr 2000 18.Bxe3 Rxg7 and now "Kaiszauri laconically gives 19.0-0! +-. I take the point to be that the obvious 19...Bh3 is met by 20.g3! Bxf1 21.Rxf1 when White's advantages in quantity and quality of pawns outweigh the exchange."

Finally I have 16...Bxe4 17.f3?! Qxg7 (Kaiszauri) 18.g3 Rde8 19.0-0 Bf5 -+ Abramson-Good, corr 1993.

Like Micawber I have always suspected, that the deviations 8...Bf5 and 8...Qxf6 are reasonable as well. As a consequence I have always preferred to play 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 iso 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.c3, which is the Göring Gambit and not the Scottish Gambit (4.Bc4).
  
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micawber
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #11 - 06/21/07 at 15:59:58
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@MNB:
You mentioned Iskov's two "disasterous" games" in a previous post, but did not provide the game-scores.  Sad


@Bibs:

Thx for the links. Unfortunately they dont't contain material relevant to the lines discussed in this thread.

The first is a link to an opinion by Dan Quigley. He is an able analyst, and 1.e4,e5 players probably
know him from "Quigley's bust" to the Marshall gambit. (not really a bust, but it put one
move-order in the main line out of business). I've played (and won) against him, so I was a little surprised to see his rating quoted as 2500+ (corr.rating). 2100-2200 seems more appropiate.

The second link is by Taylor (ex USA-corr champion). He did write a booklet about this opening, and I have quoted a game he played above (not mentioned on his internetsite). I was aware of this link. The commented games are interesting, but you should be aware his opinions are biased. In general he seems to optimistic about white;s chances.
  
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #10 - 06/21/07 at 14:58:12
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Hi,

Quick google lifted this guy's views on chessworld site:

http://www.chessworld.net/chessclubs/forums_thread_show_one_posteronleftstyle.as...

He suggests some  texts  and provides some games. Havent looked so cannot comment on quality.

and found this some time ago:

http://www.gambitchess.com/ponz.htm
which is a link to a US correspondence guys updates of his own Ponz text. Shedloads there.

Seems a big difference of opinion on the relative merits of Bb5 and qa4.

I have no opinion to offer as yet, sorry. Am completely new to it.

regards

Bibs


  
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micawber
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #9 - 06/21/07 at 14:38:06
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I am not very convinced about the 8...d3 line. But there is more to this line than the games cited  above:

1.e4,e5 2.Nf3,Nc6 3.c3,Nf6 4.d4,exd4 5.e5,Ne4 6.Qe2,f5 7.exf6,d5 8.Nbd2

The following line is less clear than preceding posts suggest:

8.....,Qxf6 9.Nxe4,dxe 10.Qxe4,Qe6 (10....Be7!?) 11.Bd3 doesnt give white much of an advantage IMHO:
11......dxc3 And now white has two replies:

I.12.0-0 
II.12.bxc

I. 12.0-0, Qxe4 13.Bxe4, Bb4!? (14.Bxc6,bxc 15.bxc,Bxc unclear) 14.bxc,Bxc3 Schaeffer-vd.Doel 2000

By the way Velimirovic-Ree contains a flaw:

13......Bd7 14.Bxc6,Bxc6 15.Re1+,Kf7 16.Ne5+

Now Ree blundered with 16...Kf6 17.Nxc6, bxc6 18.bxc
Black should play instead
16....Kg8! 17.Nxc6,cxb2! 18.Bxb2,bxc with equality.
(Holthuis-Leeners, corr. 1985)

II.12.bxc3!?, Bd7! 13.0-0,0-0-0  

Nor is the following line exactly clear:

1.e4,e5 2.Nf3,Nc6 3.c3,Nf6 4.d4,exd4 5.e5,Ne4 6.Qe2,f5 7.exf6,d5 8.Nbd2, Bf5

9.Nxd4,Nxd4 10.cxd4,Kf7!? 11.Nxe4,Bxe4 12.fxg7,Bxg7 lead to a sharp and unclear position in Ohlzon-Mattala, Hallstahammer 1998 (Sweden)

9.Nxe4,dxe4 10.f7+,Kxf7 11.Ng5+
and now not 11....Kf6? 12.g4 +-  Duckstein-Wittman 1976 but
11.....Ke8 12.Nxe4,Qe7 13.Ng3,Bg6=  (Taylor-Andersson, USA 1981)


Finally if some of you are trying to find some more theory on this line you should realize
that some authors consider these variations as belonging to the scotch gambit:
(1.e4,e5 2.Nf3, Nc6 3.d4,xd4 4.c3,Nf6 transposes)
  
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #8 - 06/21/07 at 01:26:23
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 06/20/07 at 20:44:33:

According to the ChessPub Guide 8...d3 is the move, 9 Qe3 Bc5 with some attack for Black.
5...Nd5 is also mentioned, which seems to equalise immediately.


I think White can preserve an edge after 5...Nd5.
Botterill in Open Gambits (1986) also likes 5...Ne4 (he reaches this variation via the Göring Gambit 3.d4 exd4 4.c3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4) 6.Qe2 f5! 7.exf6 d5 8.Nbd2 d3 9.Qe3 Bc5 10.fxg7 Rg8 11.Nd4.

In another thread I have posted two games Iskov-Hebden, Manchester 1979 and Iskov-Kaiszauri, Oslo 1980. As these cannot be found in databases, I suggest to use the Search button. Botterill concludes:

"All I can say, is that the 4...Nf6 line offers chances for both sides and needs further investigations. I do not know of any secure way for White to get a plus."
Little seems to have changed since then.
  
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #7 - 06/20/07 at 21:22:31
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3...d5 is better for Black. check Emms' and Kaufman's books. they are right. Try 3.Bb5!?
  
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #6 - 06/20/07 at 20:44:33
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BayZG wrote on 06/20/07 at 12:49:13:
.But I think It  isn't sufficient.Because: 6.Qe2 f5 7.exf6 d5 Here until problem there, but: 8.Nbd2!? Bf5 

According to the ChessPub Guide 8...d3 is the move, 9 Qe3 Bc5 with some attack for Black.
5...Nd5 is also mentioned, which seems to equalise immediately.
  
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #5 - 06/20/07 at 12:58:13
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can you advise book there for ponziani opening? because I like this opening ...  Smiley
  
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #4 - 06/20/07 at 12:49:13
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Priority message for thanks! Yes this pluck black more recommend.But I think It  isn't sufficient.Because: 6.Qe2 f5 7.exf6 d5 Here until problem there, but: 8.Nbd2!? Bf5 [8...Qxf6 9.Nxe4 dxe4 10.Qxe4+ Qe6 11.Bd3! Velimirovic,D - Ree,H 1976   33 moves 1-0] 9.Nxe4 dxe4 10.f7+ Kxf7 11.Ng5+ And  it goes on the attack!

Dueckstein,A - Wittmann,W [C44]
Kapfenberg  1976
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 Ne4 6.Qe2 f5 7.exf6 d5 8.Nbd2 Bf5 9.Nxe4 dxe4 10.f7+ Kxf7 11.Ng5+ Kf6 12.g4 h6 13.h4 Bg6 14.Nxe4+ Bxe4 15.Qxe4 Qe7 16.Bg5+ hxg5 17.hxg5+ Kxg5 18.f4+ Kf6 19.g5+ Kf7 20.Bc4+ Ke8 21.Qxe7+ Nxe7 22.Rxh8 dxc3 23.Rh2 cxb2 24.Rxb2 b6 25.Rd1 c6 26.Re2 b5 27.Bb3 c5 28.Be6 g6 29.f5 1–0

Schneider,L (2450) - Kaiszauri,K (2365) [C44]
Rilton Cup Stockholm, 1980
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 Ne4 6.Qe2 f5 7.exf6 d5 8.Nbd2 Qxf6 9.Nxe4 dxe4 10.Qxe4+ Qe6 11.Bd3 dxc3 12.bxc3 Be7 13.Bf4 0–0 14.Bc4 1–0

Grabinsky,Vladimir (2316) - Potapov,Alexander1 (2530) [C44]
Pardubice op-A Pardubice (1) 2005  (BayZG)
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.c3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Qe2 f5 7.exf6 d5 8.Nbd2 d3!? 9.Qe3! Bc5 10.fxg7 Rg8 11.Nd4 Qe7 12.Bxd3 Nxd4 13.cxd4 Bxd4 14.Qxd4 Ng3+ 15.Ne4! Nxh1 [15...dxe4 16.Bb5+ c6 17.hxg3 cxb5 18.Rxh7+-] 16.Bg5+- Qe6 17.Kf1 Kf7 18.Bf6 h6 19.Re1 c5 20.Qxc5 dxe4 21.Bc4 Kxf6 22.Bxe6 Bxe6 23.Kg1 Nxf2 24.Qxf2+ Kxg7 25.Qd4+ Kg6 26.Rf1 Rae8 27.Rf6+ Kh5 28.Rxe6 Rxe6 29.Qd5+ 1–0

  
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micawber
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #3 - 06/20/07 at 08:10:00
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Yes! The following continuation shows how much fun black can have: 

6.Qe2,f5! 7.exf,d5 8.fxg7,Bxg7 9.Nxd4, 0-0!  (9.cxd4,Bg4)
10.Be3,Nxd4 11.cxd4,Nxf2!? (11...c5!) 12.Bxf2,Re8  (Casa-Boey, Lugano 1968, 0-1 (21))
  
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #2 - 06/19/07 at 22:00:05
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6...f5 7 exf6 d5 is much more fun for Black!
  
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #1 - 06/19/07 at 21:33:59
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I WANT TO SHARE ONE GAME...

Gucin,Z - Akbaba,Mithat [C44]
Ataturk Festival-2006 Adana/TURKEY     [BayZG]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 This subject later black that attack do: 
3...Nf6 Other probability... [3...d5!? My black line!; 3...f5; 3...Bc5 Good attack isn't counted.] 
4.d4! Yes! I think this attack eat anything hold. 
4...exd4 [Other line: 4...Nxe4 ] 5.e5!? [Be hurry up necessary there: 5.cxd4? Nxe4 6.d5 Bb4+ 7.Nbd2 Ne7ł And there isn't the problem in black.] 
5...Ne4?! Centre sit down good but this knight for early ... [5...Nd5] 
6.Qe2! Nc5 [Was there other road? I am not supposeing very.But  let us look at again: 6...d5 7.exd6 f5 (7...Bf5? 8.Nbd2± And knight dead ...) 8.Nbd2!? (Let us avoid from the attack again early. 8.cxd4? Bxd6 9.Nc3 0–0 10.Nxe4 fxe4 11.Qxe4 Re8–+ Lop what ??You choose playing this position ?!) 8...Bxd6 9.Nxe4 fxe4 10.Qxe4+ Qe7 11.Qxe7+ Bxe7 12.Nxd4˛ Good counted,what say ?] 
7.cxd4 Ne6 8.d5 For a moment, a lot of be pleased,but later understand temporary... 8...Bb4+ 9.Nc3 Ned4 10.Nxd4 Nxd4 11.Qe4 c5 12.Bd3± Until here.Any more win time ! 12...Qe7 13.0–0 d6 14.exd6 Qxe4 15.Nxe4 Bf5 16.a3 Bxe4 17.Bxe4 Ba5 18.Be3 Rd8 19.b4 Bb6 20.Rfe1 0–0 21.Rad1 Rfe8
22.d7! Rxe4 23.Bxd4 Rxe1+ 24.Rxe1 Kf8 25.bxc5 Ba5 26.c6 bxc6 27.dxc6 1–0
  
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BayZG
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Ponziani
06/19/07 at 20:02:58
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Hello everybody! Smiley

Ponziani like to play friend there here ? Because  I like to play In the line . I applied in the tourney.But myself better improve for idea with you share want. For this reason correct-wrong find idea explanation do want love ...  Smiley
  
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