Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Nimzo Leningrad Queen Sac on move 6 (Read 8146 times)
Matemax
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Re: Nimzo Leningrad Queen Sac on move 6
Reply #10 - 12/25/07 at 16:28:51
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Thanks for your contributions and suggestions!

Reading your replies and playing through the attached games I came (for the moment) to the conclusion that the best variation for white is:


1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Bg5 h6 5.Bh4 c5 6.d5 Nxd5 7.Bxd8 Nxc3 8.Qb3 Ne4+ 9.Kd1 Nxf2+ 10.Kc2

Depending on the following play there may be 3 critical positions which I like to present:

Nr 1 - "Take the money and run"

11.Qf3 Nxh1 12.Qxf7 b6 13.Qxg7 Re8 14.Qxh6



Black has lost all his kingside pawns, but may come up with counterplay (2 rooks - open files)

Nr 2 - "Eat the horse"

11.Qg3 Nxh1 12.Qxg7 Re8 13.Nh3



White keeps control of important squares, will bring the bishop out to eat the knight with the rook

Nr 3 - "Save the bishop"

10...Nxh1 11.Bc7



Black takes the rook immediately and white takes his chance to safe the bishop

Lets help black to safe the game  Wink (if possible at all  Shocked)
  
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Re: Nimzo Leningrad Queen Sac on move 6
Reply #9 - 12/25/07 at 16:07:49
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Attached Games Queensac - part 2:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Bg5 c5 5.d5 Nd5
Source: www.chesslive.de
  

5Nd5.pgn ( 4 KB | 240 Downloads )
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Matemax
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Re: Nimzo Leningrad Queen Sac on move 6
Reply #8 - 12/25/07 at 16:07:09
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Attached Games Queensac - part 1:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Bg5 h6 5. Bh4 c5 6.d5 Nd5
Source: www.chesslive.de
  

6Nd5.pgn ( 6 KB | 245 Downloads )
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MNb
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Re: Nimzo Leningrad Queen Sac on move 6
Reply #7 - 12/25/07 at 02:56:51
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Paddy wrote on 12/24/07 at 19:23:17:

This all needs checking with modern computer analysis, of course, and there are undoubtedly some discoveries to be made

Certainly and I find it always very handy to take that "good old stuff" as a starting point. People like Zak were very good analysts and had a very good understanding even of complicated tactical lines. Even if silicon power leads to corrections, very often their ideas can be used in an improved way.

Matemax wrote on 12/24/07 at 11:25:38:
Unfortunately the comp tells that 10...Kd8 is much stronger than the immediate 10...Nh1 - I think the reason is that after a later a3 blacks bishop is able to move back to a5 where it is safer than on e1.

So don't accept this too quickly, also for the reasons pointed out by Paddy.
  

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Paddy
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Re: Nimzo Leningrad Queen Sac on move 6
Reply #6 - 12/24/07 at 19:23:17
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Matemax wrote on 12/24/07 at 11:25:38:
Nice to see, that there is good old stuff about this variation.


Of course there is "good old stuff" on this variation! It is absolutely fundamental to the effectiveness of the Leningrad and was investigated by the pioneers such as Zak in the 1940s, building on prior analysis by Alekhine himself. Without satisfying themselves first that there was at least one way for White to gain an advantage against the queen sac, there was little point in Zak et al investigating 4 Bg5 further.

Zak thought that after 4 Bg5 h6 5 Bh4 c5 6 d5 Nxd5?! 7 Bxd8 Nxc3 8 Qb3! Ne4+ 9 Kd1 Nxf2+ the move 10 Kc1 was best, since it avoided a later check by ...Nd4. Now if 10...Kxd8 the old book line goes 11 Qf3 Nxh1 12 Qxf7 Nc6 13 Qxg7 Re8 14 Qxh6 which he evauated as clearly better for White, since he reckoned that the Nh1 could not escape. This all needs checking with modern computer analysis, of course, and there are undoubtedly some discoveries to be made, but care is required, since computer evaluation of such positions (with a knight in the corner which may or not manage to escape) is notoriously untrustworthy unless analysed to an absolutely clear conclusion.

The old theory regarded 10...Nxh1 as a better try for Black when both 11 Qf3 (Alekhine) and 11 a3 (Zak) were analysed as better for White. 

It is possible that the above is irrelevant if White can actually get away with 10 Kc2, which is obviously the move he wants to play if he can, rather than have the Ra1 blocked in by Kc1. Zak feared 10 Kc2 Nxh1 11 Bc7 Nc6 12 e3 Nf2 with tricky compensation for Black, mainly based on the judgement that White's queen can no longer run riot on the kingside. I wonder what Zak feared after the natural looking altenative 12 Nf3. If then 12...Nf2 13 a3 looks a bit awkward for Black, with the idea 13...Ba5 14 Bxa5 Nxa5 15 Qc3.

After 10 Kc2 the other move 10...Kxd8 seems to fail to 11 Qg3 or 11 Qf3).

Memo: check whether the inclusion or not of 4...h6 5 Bh4 makes any substantial difference in the key lines.

The queen sac line is very interesting but I fear that the best modern analysis (i.e. by human + Fritz) will eventually find more resources for White than for Black.
  
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Re: Nimzo Leningrad Queen Sac on move 6
Reply #5 - 12/24/07 at 11:25:38
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Nice to see, that there is good old stuff about this variation. Unfortunately the comp tells that 10...Kd8 is much stronger than the immediate 10...Nh1 - I think the reason is that after a later a3 blacks bishop is able to move back to a5 where it is safer than on e1.

More ideas and suggestions heartly welcome - in one of my next replies I will post a pgn-file with games from a database.
  
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MNb
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Re: Nimzo Leningrad Queen Sac on move 6
Reply #4 - 12/23/07 at 22:11:58
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Some good old (more than 35 years) analysis by Zak, mentioned in a reworked Pachman book on the Indian Systems, goes as follows:
6...Nxd5?! 7.Bxd8 Nxc3 8.Qb3 Ne4+ 9.Kd1 Nxf2+ 10.Kc1! Nxh1 (Kxd8 11.Qf3 Nxh1 12.Qxf7) 11.a3! Be1 12.Nf3 Bf2 13.Bc7 d5 14.cxd5 exd5 15.e4! with a clear advantage. I hope I have transferred the descriptive notation correctly.
  

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Re: Nimzo Leningrad Queen Sac on move 6
Reply #3 - 12/23/07 at 17:54:46
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I seem to remember that this gets mentioned in the old Batsford book on the Leningrad Nimzo by MacDonald Ross as if it was known theory.
iirc he thinks it was just about playable but dubious.

Unfortunately I can't check the details at the moment. It's also of course hardly impossible that computers can improve in places Smiley

That book is interesting in that it mentions some ideas like the semi benoni lines which seem to have been more or less forgotten nowadays.
  
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Re: Nimzo Leningrad Queen Sac on move 6
Reply #2 - 12/23/07 at 17:14:22
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Quote:
black will lose his Knight for nothing

Hmm - I will play b6 and Bb7, winning the knight is not easy for white. 

Can you give a sample variation after:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc4 Bb4 4.Bg5 h6 5.Bh4 c5 6.d5 Nd5 7.Bd8 Nc3 8. Qb3 Ne4 9.Kd1 Nf2 10.Kc2 (I am not sure if Kc1 may be safer in the long run) Kd8 11.Qf3 (certainly best) Nh1 12.Qf7 b6

Blacks plan: bring Bishop and Knight out - move King (eg to c7), connect the rooks and get counterplay

Hope to hear from you  Smiley
  
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Re: Nimzo Leningrad Queen Sac on move 6
Reply #1 - 12/23/07 at 14:01:00
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How do you want to continue after 7.Bd8:?

Obvious would be 7. ... Nc3: but after 
08.Qb3 Ne4+ 
09.Kd1 Nf2:+ 
10.Kc2 Kd8:
11.a3 Ba5
12.Qb5 Bc7
13.Qc5: Nh1:
14.Nf3 Ng3
15.hg3: Bg3:
Black seems to have sufficient compensation (Rook+Bishop+2Pawns versus Queen) - however, White has a lead in development, and Blacks King is trapped in the center, so White seems to have the better chances due to his attacking possibilities.

That would be my first thought without any engine or such... 
However, I'm pretty sure that there are better moves for white... 

Edit: Ok, Fritz gives

11.Qf3 Nh1:
12.Qf7: 

And White is already better (13.Qg7: is inevitable and after 14.g4 followed by Bg2 black will lose his Knight for nothing... so he got Bishop+Knight and a cramped position for a Queen, NO sufficient compensation.)
  
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Nimzo Leningrad Queen Sac on move 6
12/23/07 at 11:48:33
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Hi there!

I wonder if someone ever has tried:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc4 Bb4 4.Bg5 h6 5.Bh4 c5 6.d5 Nd5!?



Food for thought! - I would be interested to do some analysis and discussion here Smiley
  
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