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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? (Read 57403 times)
kylemeister
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #47 - 07/03/23 at 23:55:08
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So apparently Szabo goes with the Siesta.

Incidentally a game with it by the more famous Szabo (Damjanovic-Szabo, Buenos Aires 1970) appeared in Informator and ECO (with an apparently erroneous evaluation of clearly better for Black after 15 moves).
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #46 - 07/03/23 at 22:31:03
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I just happened upon another source. (Sale ends soon).

Club Player's Repertoire for Black with 1...e5 by GM Krisztian Szabo (10 hours and 22 mins Running Time) 

https://www.modern-chess.com/club-players-repertoire-for-black-with-1-e5-by-gm-k...

Chapter 1. Kings Gambit 3.Bc4
Chapter 2. Kings Gambit 3.Nf3 Nf6
Chapter 3. Vienna Game (Part I)
Chapter 4. Vienna Game (Part II)
Chapter 5. Vienna Game (Part III)
Chapter 6. Centre Game
Chapter 7. Goering Gambit
Chapter 8. Ponziani Opening
Chapter 9. Four Knights 4.g3
Chapter 10. Four Knights 4.d4
Chapter 11. Four Knights 4.Bb5
Chapter 12. Scotch Gambit
Chapter 13. Scotch Game Secondary Lines
Chapter 14. Scotch Game Main Line
Chapter 15. Italian Game 4.Ng5
Chapter 16. Italian Game 4.d3
Chapter 17. Ruy Lopez Exchange 5.Nc3
Chapter 18. Ruy Lopez Exchange 5.0-0
Chapter 19. Ruy Lopez Deferred Steinitz (Part I)
Chapter 20. Ruy Lopez Deferred Steinitz (Part II)
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #45 - 07/03/23 at 20:03:03
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kylemeister wrote on 07/01/23 at 16:25:05:
A bit of theory from last century:  10.Nc3 Be7 11.b3 O-O 12.Bb2 Rae8 13.Rae1 Bd8 14.f4 c6 15.Rd1 Bc7 16.e5 Qd8 17.Na4 dxe5 18.fxe5 Qxd4+ 19.Bxd4 Nd7 20.Nc5 Re7 (De Firmian-Timman, Amsterdam 1996) 21. Nxb7 Bxe5 22. Bxe5 Nxe5 23. Nc5 += Timman.
12...c6, preventing 13Nd5, has also been played. White retains more space but Black may be OK.

kylemeister wrote on 07/01/23 at 16:25:05:
I half-recalled a recent game Svidler-J. van Foreest, in which after 6...b5 7. Bb3 Nxd4 8. Nxd4 exd4 9. c3 dxc3 10. Qh5 g6 11. Qd5 Be6 12. Qc6+ Bd7 13. Qd5 Be6 14. Qc6+ Bd7 15. Qxc3 Nf6 16. e5 dxe5 17. Qxe5+ Qe7 18. Qc3 apparently 18...b4 was a novelty
Yes, I can see that 18...b4!? helps Black's game.

Kerangali wrote on 07/03/23 at 17:10:07:
The Papaioannou link is here

I noticed the coverage of the ...Na5 lines but completly missed the fact that he analyzed the deferred Steinitz.

Kerangali wrote on 07/02/23 at 18:43:37:
Lajos Portisch, My Secrets in the Ruy Lopez.
He experiments with several move orders. Perhaps he was trying to confuse his opponents. It worked on me.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 is a mandatory move order for playing the Siesta.

If one intends to play the fianchetto line with ...Nf6, then 4...Nf6 is also possible:  1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O d6 6. c3 g6 7. d4 Bd7 8. Re1 Bg7
White can refuse to go along with the plan and play 8.Bc6 Bc6 9. de5 Ne4 10. Nbd2 (ChessPublishing, Tim Taylor), but Black seems to be all right, especially with 10...Nc5
  
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Kerangali
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #44 - 07/03/23 at 17:10:07
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The Papaioannou link is here (preview at the bottom): 
https://www.modern-chess.com/1-e4-e5-for-black-repertoire-against-the-ruy-lopez-...
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #43 - 07/03/23 at 16:23:38
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Quote:
What I found from Roiz at Modern-chess was the Breyer and White sidelines.

Sorry, my mistake -- that'll teach me to post before breakfast! I meant Kuljasevic, and I've corrected my earlier post.
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #42 - 07/03/23 at 16:11:52
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Michael Ayton wrote on 07/03/23 at 07:37:00:
(Roiz's MC repertoire database in particular has lots of interesting material), there's also a three-part NIC survey by McShane.


I found the NIC Surveys:  NIC YBK 119, 126, and 128. What I found from Roiz at Modern-chess was the Breyer and White sidelines.

The ChessPublishing archives have a lot of material.
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #41 - 07/03/23 at 13:52:50
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The King's Indian approach to the Modern Steinitz was covered in the December 22nd 2022 edition of ChessPublishing, leading to a full-bodied struggle in the game Ortiz Suarez, I. (2520) -Sambuev, B. (2432).

The ...Ne7-g6 idea is also covered in that edition, in one of Tony's games. The Siesta variation was covered in January.

I certainly do not lack study material in the 1e4 e5 column!
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #40 - 07/03/23 at 09:00:13
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Kerangali wrote on 07/02/23 at 18:43:37:
GM Kosten can maybe share a word about it Smiley
I like it, but was a little worried that people might think I've been covering it too much this last year or so.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #39 - 07/03/23 at 07:37:00
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I still love the Modern Steinitz! -- esp. played in 'KID of the Kingside' style via 5 0-0 Bd7 6 c3 g6 7 d4 Bg7. It's recommended, I recall, by Short, who I certainly don't associate with iffy systems ...

As well as the sources FreeRepublic mentions (Kuljasevic's MC repertoire database in particular has lots of interesting material), there's also a three-part NIC survey by McShane. And thanks for these other sources, Kerangali! For some reason I didn't even know of the Portisch book, which I guess must expand his chapter in the old How to Open a Chess Game volume. He's one of the really greats, whose writings are bound to deepen your understanding whether you play the precise lines he recommends or not!
« Last Edit: 07/03/23 at 16:21:34 by Michael Ayton »  
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Kerangali
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #38 - 07/02/23 at 18:43:37
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In Modern Chess, there is also this course by GM Papaioannou:
https://www.modern-chess.com/1-e4-e5-for-black-repertoire-against-the-ruy-lopez-...
His repertoier covers the SPanish Chigorin and the Deferred Steinitz as an alternative. However, he's just interested in ...g6 lines, possibly for Biltz (same as his anti-Italian Black course with h6/g6 secondary system). 
For classical lines, there is the nice booklet authored by Lajos Portisch, My Secrets in the Ruy Lopez. There are lengthy explanations on the Exchange, Old Steinitz and Deferred Steinitz (3/4 of the book), moving up to the Breyer. Portisch shows remarkable disdain for computer evaluations, although his lines were computer-checked by a fellow GM. He shows his trademark setup in the deferred Steinitz with Ng8-e7-g6 and h6-Be7-Bg5, and even in the Old Steinitz he trusted the solidity of his position. Great lessons from the past!
Needless to say, the Deferred Steinitz and related Siesta or ...g6 systems are often played when Black wants to avoid heavy theory in the Spanish. GM Kosten can maybe share a word about it Smiley
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #37 - 07/02/23 at 17:48:14
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Judging from recent publications, the Modern Steinitz is not so fashionable. However strong players still play it form time to time, and I see nothing like a refutation. I like the variety of play that can ensue. When it comes to preparation, it's a double-edged sword as both White and Black have many diverse options. 

I find it interesting to compare one line to the Mar Del Plata variation of the King's Indian Defense:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. c3 Bd7 6. d4 Nf6 7. O-O g6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Bxd7+ Nxd7 10. c4 Bg7 11. Nc3 h6 12. Ne1 O-O

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Be2 O-O 6. Nf3 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7

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I once thought that the trade of White square bishops favored White. In the King's Indian, Black usually tries to preserve his queen bishop. If king side pawns become locked with a pawn on h3, Black can blow the White king side open with Bxh3.

However, now I think it's probably the other way around. Trading the bishops eases Black play and the two rook pawn moves probably help Black as well.

None of this is forced for either player. I went out of my way a little to find comparable positions to help me get my bearings. I see nothing here to cause Black any great concern.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #36 - 07/01/23 at 20:38:35
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kylemeister
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #35 - 07/01/23 at 16:25:05
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FreeRepublic wrote on 07/01/23 at 15:28:16:

Contemplating the line as Black I have been most concerned about 5. O-O!? as I am a little skeptical of 5...Bg4!? 6h3 h5!?

After 5...Bd7, 6. d4!? seems the most forceful continuation.

Now perhaps 6...Nd4!? After 7. Bxd7 Qxd7 8. Nxd4 exd4 9. Qxd4 Nf6 Black seems to have a reasonable game.

A bit of theory from last century:  10.Nc3 Be7 11.b3 O-O 12.Bb2 Rae8 13.Rae1 Bd8 14.f4 c6 15.Rd1 Bc7 16.e5 Qd8 17.Na4 dxe5 18.fxe5 Qxd4+ 19.Bxd4 Nd7 20.Nc5 Re7 (De Firmian-Timman, Amsterdam 1996) 21. Nxb7 Bxe5 22. Bxe5 Nxe5 23. Nc5 += Timman.

I half-recalled a recent game Svidler-J. van Foreest, in which after 6...b5 7. Bb3 Nxd4 8. Nxd4 exd4 9. c3 dxc3 10. Qh5 g6 11. Qd5 Be6 12. Qc6+ Bd7 13. Qd5 Be6 14. Qc6+ Bd7 15. Qxc3 Nf6 16. e5 dxe5 17. Qxe5+ Qe7 18. Qc3 apparently 18...b4 was a novelty, and some computer evaluation had both sides' play as "flawless."
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #34 - 07/01/23 at 15:28:16
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I think the subject question is fair enough.

After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6, White has several 5th move options to consider.

Contemplating the line as Black I have been most concerned about 5. O-O!? as I am a little skeptical of 5...Bg4!? 6h3 h5!?

After 5...Bd7, 6. d4!? seems the most forceful continuation.

Now perhaps 6...Nd4!? After 7. Bxd7 Qxd7 8. Nxd4 exd4 9. Qxd4 Nf6 Black seems to have a reasonable game.
  
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BabySnake
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #33 - 02/16/11 at 16:10:03
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Ametanoitos wrote on 01/31/11 at 18:09:17:
Didn't Jansa in his "Dynamic Chess Strategy" book examined this variation in some detail? I had this wonderfull book but it was stolen from me along with my laptop.... Angry


"Dynamics of Chess Strategy" in fact  Smiley

The other book is the one by Suba  Cool
  
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