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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) REINCARNATION AND CHESS (Read 30139 times)
OstapBender
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Re: REINCARNATION AND CHESS
Reply #90 - 03/18/08 at 02:38:11
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Sure the correspondence principle says that we don't have to throw out classical (Newtonian) mechanics, but physics still changed dramatically in 20th century with the advent of quantum mechanics and relativity.  A couple of the distinctly non-classical quirks of quantum mechanics are:
  • particles of matter have the properties of waves.
  • you cannot observe something without changing it!
  • the outcome of an event is not deterministic - you can only predict probablities.
It is this last point that led Einstein to proclaim that God does not throw dice.

  

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MNb
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Re: REINCARNATION AND CHESS
Reply #89 - 03/18/08 at 00:43:51
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Nietzsche wrote on 03/17/08 at 02:02:20:
"Physics still being the most successfull and influential branch of science of the last 200 years"

I'm intrigued by this.  I've always enjoyed physics but I've often heard that the biological sciences were the most successful in the past century or two.


Cars, trains, airplanes, computers, internet, electricity at home, transistors, must I go on? On what principles do you think all those instruments are made that ensure your extended life expectancy and quality of health after you have got a car accident? Without physics any doctor would be helpless.
Thanks SF for the implicit compliment, but I really think physics (in Dutch "natuurkunde" does not get a capital and I am not afraid to show I am foreign) is not that difficult. The mathematics involved can be, but the basic principles are fairly easy to understand.

@Gambit
What the atomic bomb has to do with reincarnation is that the two are explained by two contradictory theories.

Nietzsche wrote on 03/17/08 at 18:17:01:

I think its also worth mentioning that physics today is very different than physics 200 years ago.  There is no doubt that Newtonian physics was the big mama of the 17th and 18th centuries, but 21st century physics (at least in the laboratory) is a completely different animal.

Yes and no. Due to the correspondence principle all modern valid theories in physics can be reduced to Newtonian theory. I have done it myself. It is better to say that modern physics is an expansion of Newtonian (and I'd like to mention the great Dutch physicist Huygens as well) theory. Eg wave/particle theory (on the nature of matter) in quanummechanics is essentially a combination of Newton's particle theory and Huygens' wave theory.
See, SF, how simple Wink it can be? 
  

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OstapBender
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Re: REINCARNATION AND CHESS
Reply #88 - 03/17/08 at 22:14:23
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drkodos wrote on 03/17/08 at 20:52:06:
The brightest minds still aim for the stars and what they are made of

This sounds a bit like a 1950s science fiction novelist's perspective. While it has a certain appeal and is not entirely off the mark, I have to disagree.

I think the brightest minds are simply attracted to whatever most catches their interest.  In science, the most competetive among these will be drawn to big, unsolved problems that stumped their predecessors and continue to stump the best of their contemporaries.  The ones who succeeded most spectacularly, we've heard of.

While some of the best and brightest still strive to understand the detailed structure of matter, the nature of the universe, etc. I think others are attracted to equally daunting problems in medicine, biology, chemistry, or mathematics.  And, of course, some aren't attracted to science at all.

What outstanding contributions to science might have been made by brilliant people who instead chose to spend their time unlocking the secrets of the Najdorf Sicilian!
  

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drkodos
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Re: REINCARNATION AND CHESS
Reply #87 - 03/17/08 at 20:52:06
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The penthouse always gains the most rent and remains the sexiest part of the construct, but it would not exist but for a well built and deeply entrenched foundation.

The brightest minds still aim for the stars and what they are made of, while the slightly lessor milk-at-the-bottom-of-the-cream types stay closer to our planet and its daily needs.  The rest, I believe, become civil servants.

Lest anyone be threatened by this apparent heirarchy of intellect.....me, I'm just a lawnmower.


  

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OstapBender
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Re: REINCARNATION AND CHESS
Reply #86 - 03/17/08 at 20:28:18
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The greatest advances in the biological sciences in the last century have been in the field of molecular biology.  It could be argued that molecular biology owes its very existence to physics and chemistry, or at least to those trained in these fields.  

James Watson credits Erwin Schrödinger's book "What Is Life?" for his decision to pursue the study of genetics.  Schrödinger, of course, was one of the key players in the birth of quantum mechanics.  (iirc, Watson's training in chemistry played a key role in working out the structure of the double helix).

Francis Crick trained as physicist, played an even greater role in the devlopment of molecular biology into the field it is today.

Arguably, had Watson and Crick not come along then the structure of DNA would probably have been solved by Linus Pauling - a theoretical chemist and a key player in application of quantum mechanical concepts to the understanding of bonding in chemical and biological structures.  He had already won the Nobel prize for deducing the structure of the alpha helix and beta sheets in proteins.

Molecular biology is essentially what 19th century genetics evolved into in the 20th century.  In this sense, Willempie's statement "No physics = no genetics" possesses an element of truth (dare I use this word?).

For anyone interested in a well-written, historical account of the development of the field of Molecular Biology, there is an excellent book by Horace Freeland Judson entitled "The Eighth Day of Creation: Makers of the Revolution in Biology."

  

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Nietzsche
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Re: REINCARNATION AND CHESS
Reply #85 - 03/17/08 at 18:17:01
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It's so great that the Princess Bride is still going so strong after more than 20 years; yes, its been that long!  When I first saw the movie I was actually a bit disappointed since I thought the book was so vastly superior. But now I can appreciate the difficulties of adapting a novel (much less a classic) and I've come to recommend that screenplay when people ask about great adaptations.  The others are the Godfather and  Adaptation.  But I digress...


"No physics=no genetics "
Huh?   
Genetics actually relies on physics much, much less than other fields.  That's the main reason it was not considered a "hard" science.  But its success has made people question the privileged status of strict mathematic modeling.  If something works but you don't know why...well, it works.  The need for a "solid floor" has basically vanished in many fields and been replaced by "reproducibility".   As Hilliary Putnam said, "We call something a science when it achieves results." Otherwise thinks like 'Social Science' or 'behavioral science' wouldn't make sense.   

I think its also worth mentioning that physics today is very different than physics 200 years ago.  There is no doubt that Newtonian physics was the big mama of the 17th and 18th centuries, but 21st century physics (at least in the laboratory) is a completely different animal.   

Of course, if they can produce a GUT, then this all becomes moot as physics will once again be the obvious choice.  In the meantime, I'll take my extended life expectancy and quality of health over the atomic bomb and checkout scanners at the supermarket. Cheesy

N.

ps - drkodos your previous post was brilliant.  William Goldman would be proud.
  

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OstapBender
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Re: REINCARNATION AND CHESS
Reply #84 - 03/17/08 at 15:14:06
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drkodos wrote on 03/17/08 at 04:40:27:
But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put a movie reference into his own post or one of his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the movie reference into his own post, because he would know that only a great fool would believe all that he reads!. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not believe the post in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it! so I can clearly not believe the post in front of me!!

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
  

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Re: REINCARNATION AND CHESS
Reply #83 - 03/17/08 at 12:33:27
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Gambit wrote on 03/17/08 at 03:29:24:

What does all this have to do with reincarnation?


Or for that matter, what does anything have to do with "reincarnation?"
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: REINCARNATION AND CHESS
Reply #82 - 03/17/08 at 06:20:41
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Nietzsche wrote on 03/17/08 at 02:02:20:
"Physics still being the most successfull and influential branch of science of the last 200 years"

I'm intrigued by this.  I've always enjoyed physics but I've often heard that the biological sciences were the most successful in the past century or two.
I'm thinking about germ theory of medicine, genetics (and epigenetics), plus the very successful use of bio-chemistry in creating things like antibiotics, anesthetics, and vaccines.  Diseases were really only  treated for centuries but have only started getting cured in the past 150 years thanks to people like Salk.  

Physics has obviously grown at a phenomenal rate, but with the life expectancy growing several fold in certain parts of the globe in the past 100 years, its a tough call as to success.  I, personally, am rather impressed by Epidemiology's ability to save literally millions of lives over the past few generations.    And how does one measure 'success' in a field of science?  By greater clarification of ideas?  By providing solutions to problems?

Nietzsche

No physics=no genetics 
No chemistry=no medicine 
Or as I always learned it. Biology is the application of chemistry and physics in so far as a biology student can understand those fields Wink
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: REINCARNATION AND CHESS
Reply #81 - 03/17/08 at 05:19:02
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drkodos wrote on 03/17/08 at 04:40:27:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/17/08 at 04:27:32:
Ostap, 

I got your reference.  




But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put a movie reference into his own post or one of his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the movie reference into his own post, because he would know that only a great fool would believe all that he reads!. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not believe the post in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it! so I can clearly not believe the post in front of me!!

 





Excellent!
  
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drkodos
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Re: REINCARNATION AND CHESS
Reply #80 - 03/17/08 at 04:40:27
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/17/08 at 04:27:32:
Ostap, 

I got your reference.  




But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put a movie reference into his own post or one of his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the movie reference into his own post, because he would know that only a great fool would believe all that he reads!. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not believe the post in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it! so I can clearly not believe the post in front of me!!

 



  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: REINCARNATION AND CHESS
Reply #79 - 03/17/08 at 04:27:32
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Ostap, 

I got your reference.   

All, 

I borrow liberally from the great writers of the past and present.  I hope I don't have to start citing all my references.  I won't know where to begin or end.

After all, Newton was quoting from Isaiah when he said he was standing on the shoulders of giants.  He is now given credit for the quote.  Does that make sense to you?
  
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OstapBender
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Re: REINCARNATION AND CHESS
Reply #78 - 03/17/08 at 03:48:51
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J-dog wrote on 03/16/08 at 22:41:23:
OstapBender wrote on 03/16/08 at 21:50:20:
J-dog wrote on 03/16/08 at 20:58:03:
Reality

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Maybe you are right.  What do you think it means?

Since my "bluff" has been called, I'll admit that I was reminded of a similar repeated use of the word inconceivable from a movie recently mentioned in this thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

or, in context if you prefer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-b7RmmMJeo

Sorry for being facetious in the midst of a serious discussion. I should have "POOR IMPULSE CONTROL" tattooed on my forhead.  Wink
  

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Re: REINCARNATION AND CHESS
Reply #77 - 03/17/08 at 03:31:59
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Gambit, 

Hopefully nothing at all!   

Cool
  
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Re: REINCARNATION AND CHESS
Reply #76 - 03/17/08 at 03:29:24
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/17/08 at 02:45:11:
I missed Nietzshe's reply.

Hume would respond by going back to his billiards game.  He saw the flaw of his own argument in his own time.

I agree though that Biology is more influential, at least for me, than Physics.  The three greatest scientific discoveries/inventions of the last 100 years are:
    [3] The discovery and invention of the Atomic Bomb
    [2]  The discovery and use of penicillin
    [1] The discovery of the structure of DNA and the Genome Project


Perhaps atomic fission isn't even as important as the developments in the science of the mind.  I love Physics, but I think Nietzsche's right on this one.


What does all this have to do with reincarnation?
  
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