Normal Topic Bogo-Indian black repertoire - some ideas (Read 9388 times)
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 965
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: Bogo-Indian black repertoire - some ideas
Reply #7 - 09/08/08 at 12:47:13
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 09/06/08 at 12:25:54:
Is it of the same quality as "Chess openings for white, explained" ? If yes, we'd better stay away from it.


I have both books. To be fair, I would say that the Black repertoire book is not bad. This is mainly because the suggested rep. is more reliable. For instance, the Nimzo can be played throughout a career, whereas the Scotch gambit/Italian/Two Knights complex is really suitable only for a first repertoire (to learn the principles of the open game and hone tactical skills), or for an occasional surprise.

The Black rep book has holes, of course (e.g. I think it underestimates Black's difficulties in the important line 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 Bb4+ 4 Bd2 Qe7 5 g3 Nc6 6 Nc3!) but it is good at explaining the strategies (generally dark square) of the chosen systems in the Nimzo and Bogo.

Also I think that in the Sicilian section, against the Maroczy it would have been better to choose the dark-square strategy line rather than the Gurgenidze, which actually requires a lot of specific knowledge.

Given the incredible complexity of the latest Queen's Indian theory, I think we may soon see a boost in the popularity of the Bogo, but not necessarily the 4...Qe7 line. Black can produce a more complex and positionally rich middlegame with 4...a5 or 4...c5, while drawing masters will play 4...Bxd2+ 5 Qxd2 d5, reaching solid positions similar to the Lasker defence to the QGD.
« Last Edit: 09/08/08 at 17:47:10 by Paddy »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
thibdb13
God Member
*****
Offline


Tal was the best

Posts: 974
Location: Mechelen
Joined: 01/25/07
Gender: Male
Re: Bogo-Indian black repertoire - some ideas
Reply #6 - 09/08/08 at 11:35:44
Post Tools
hnd wrote on 09/06/08 at 06:56:20:
Dindzi's repertoire book for black "Chess openings for black, explained" covers the nimzo and bogo, against d4.

You can also have a look at Pedersen's book "The Gambit Guide to the Bogo-Indian" (http://www.gambitbooks.com/books/bogoind.html)
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
trandism
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 181
Location: Greece
Joined: 04/12/08
Gender: Male
Re: Bogo-Indian black repertoire - some ideas
Reply #5 - 09/07/08 at 00:28:28
Post Tools
Yes, as MNb says, this book is full of holes so beware! Dnzidnzi's later videos on the same Nimzo/Bogo combo are more decent than the book, but still you have to keep an engine on to spot some holes - far fewer than the book fortunately..

My aforementioned analysis does not have tactical holes and you won't get destroyed if you play those lines.. You might end up worse, being Black and all that, but you won't get destroyed.. I have a decent score with normal results using it..

I have stopped playing the bogo regularly for 2-3 months now, but not due to holes in my lines..
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Bogo-Indian black repertoire - some ideas
Reply #4 - 09/06/08 at 12:25:54
Post Tools
Is it of the same quality as "Chess openings for white, explained" ? If yes, we'd better stay away from it.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
hnd
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 4
Joined: 09/06/08
Re: Bogo-Indian black repertoire - some ideas
Reply #3 - 09/06/08 at 06:56:20
Post Tools
Dindzi's repertoire book for black "Chess openings for black, explained" covers the nimzo and bogo, against d4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
trandism
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 181
Location: Greece
Joined: 04/12/08
Gender: Male
Re: Bogo-Indian black repertoire - some ideas
Reply #2 - 04/14/08 at 10:36:50
Post Tools
Thanks for replying chevalier Smiley

Well let's see...

a) 7. Bg5 doesn't look so annoying to me though of course I might be wrong..  I'd say 7... Nbd7 and then 

i) if white plays e3 cutting the bishop retreat, play h6 and force bishop to stay on h4 and proceed with a b6,bb7,c5 plan

ii) Otherwise, proceed with the e5 plan, just like in the other variations


b) Yes of course white can play 5.nc3 and 5.a3.. I didn't say "Complete repertoire" or something Tongue I'm planning to cover other lines too, but wanted to get some opinions first

c) Black can do many things against 6.Nc3!? that's for sure, but I wanted to find a shortcut to a comfortable middlegame and exchanging twice on c3 almost by force, retaining the light-squared bishops on the board and then blockading the whole center with 11...e5, 12.d5 on dark squares seemed a good idea

d) Yes that's a critical line..

11. Ne1 a5, 12. Nd3 Na6, 13. f4
I don't think I like 13...c6 so much. I have to take a look on that one..
Maybe a Nfd7, Nac5, getting one pair of knight off the board, and outposting the remaining black one on c5, provoking b4 is one idea..
Trying to make use of the fact that 13.f4 weakens the 'g4' square might be another one..

But in general I like the center to stay blocked because with the center blocked and the black bishop staying on c8-a3 diagonal, white's Bg2 is a nice piece of furniture  Cool





  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Chevalier
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 265
Joined: 04/11/08
Re: Bogo-Indian black repertoire - some ideas
Reply #1 - 04/14/08 at 03:35:27
Post Tools
I haven't checked these lines in the database, but already I have found a few holes in the analysis:

a) In your recommended line against 4.Nbd2, White can improve with 7.Bg5!, which is an annoying pin for Black. Since White also retains the option of playing e4 in one go, White should be slightly better. Black should probably prefer 5...Be7 6.e4 d5!, which looks fine for Black. Note that if White plays e5, Black can later counterattack with ...c5!.

b) White can also play 5.Nc3 and 5.a3. Not a serious omission however, given that common sense moves should give Black equality.

c) In your recommended line against 6.Nc3, Black should postpone ...Nc3 until White plays either d5 or 0-0 (the latter threatens Be1!, retaining the two bishops). 8.Qc2 is another line that is not threatening, but Grandmasters often play it against lower rated players, aiming to outplay them on technique. 

d) In your main line, 11.Ne1 a5 12.Nd3 Na6 is the main line. White can still transpose to 11.Ne1 in your main line with 13.Ne1 followed by Nd3.

I would post the ChessBase link, but unfortunately I can't get the attachment to work because it has to be in pgn format. Therefore, I have pasted the ChessBase file below:



d4 Black repertoire - Bogo-Indian [E11]
[Chevalier]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Bb4+ 4.Bd2 [ 4.Nbd2!? 0-0 5.a3 Bxd2+ ( 5...Be7!) 6.Bxd2 d6 ( 6...Ne4?! 7.Bf4 b6 8.e3 Bb7 9.Bd3 d6 10.Nd2 Nxd2 11.Qxd2 e5²) 7.Bg5!² ( 7.e3 Ne4 8.Bd3 f5 9.0-0 Nd7 10.Qc2 Ndf6=) 7...Nbd7 8.e4!? ( 8.e3 e5 9.Be2²) ] 4...Qe7 5.g3 [ 5.a3 Bxd2+ 6.Qxd2 d6 7.Nc3 0-0=] 5...Nc6 6.Bg2 [ 6.Nc3!? Bxc3 7.Bxc3 Ne4 8.Rc1 d6 9.Bg2 0-0 10.0-0 Nxc3 11.Rxc3 e5 12.d5 Nb8! ( 12...Nd8?! 13.c5!²) ] 6...Bxd2+ 7.Nbxd2 [ 7.Qxd2?! Ne4 8.Qc2 Qb4+ 9.Nc3 a) 9.Kf1 d5³; b) 9.Nbd2 Nxd2 10.Nxd2 (b) 10.Qxd2 Qxc4µ) 10...Nxd4 - now we see the idea behind 5...Nc6.; 9...Nxc3 10.Qxc3 Qxc3+ 11.bxc3 d6=] 7...0-0 [ 7...d6 8.0-0 ( 8.Nf1!?) 8...a5 9.e4 e5 10.d5 Nb8 11.Ne1 h5!÷] 8.0-0 d6 9.e4 e5 [ 9...a5!? 10.e5 dxe5 11.dxe5 Ng4÷] 10.d5 Nb8 11.Ne1 [ 11.b4 a5 12.a3 Na6 13.Qb3 Bd7 14.Rfc1 ( 14.bxa5?! Nc5!³) 14...c6 15.h3 axb4 16.axb4 c5 17.b5 ( 17.bxc5?! Nxc5!³) 17...Nb4= 11...a5 12.Nd3 Na6 13.f4 c6!?÷ 

Sorry if the symbols are hard to understand; the small "2" means a slight edge for White, the division sign means unclear, the small "3" means a slight edge for Black, and the strange "u" sign means a clear edge for Black.

  

Nothing has meaning or value other than the meaning and value that you give it.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
trandism
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 181
Location: Greece
Joined: 04/12/08
Gender: Male
Bogo-Indian black repertoire - some ideas
04/14/08 at 00:32:12
Post Tools
I have collected some lines for a starting point to build a black repertoire based on the Nimzo-Bogo duet..

This is the bogo parts (see attachments)

Any feedback appreciated
  

bogo.pgn ( 0 KB | Downloads )
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo