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Nimzowitsch Defence 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 Nf6 4 d5 (Read 18525 times)

Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1977 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: Nimzowitsch Defence 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 Nf6 4 d5 Reply #24 - 06/05/08 at 12:11:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Creative as ever, linksspringer! -- good stuff! I’ve been highly preoccupied lately and have only been able to manage a quick look, but my feeling is your suggestions are holding up … Re the Nimzo-Pirc against the 150 Attack -- yes, 7 ...a6 8 d5 Na7 looks an interesting idea. (Did you see/sense a problem with 7 ...Bg4, I wonder, or just get interested in the alternative?) In your 8 Bh6 b5! 9 Bg7 Kg7 line 10 d5 seems natural, but 10 …Ne5 looks OK, by analogy with the other similar lines. My Rybka goes 8 d5 Na7 9 Kb1 (against …Nb5, …xc3 I guess), but then 9 …Bd7!? 10 Bh6 Bh6!? 11 Qh6 Ng4! 12 Qd2 (12 Qh4 e5!) Nb5 looks interesting. The 7 d5 and 7 Bb5 lines I’m sure need further investigation, but I can well believe Black should be OK in a complex struggle. In Kraft--Uschold I guess 17 h5 (instead of 17 f5) needs looking at (you can tell I haven’t really done so!) but I’m not suggesting Black can’t defend. In Papa.--Surendorj 12 h5 seems not to work but in that case Black looks OK anyway? But all this is pretty uncharted territory, as is 7 Bb5. Hebden used this to grind down Beikert after 7 …a6 8 Bc6 by focusing on the weakness of Black’s queenside pawns, but I imagine there are improvements for Black. Even so I’m tempted to prefer the response Beikert ran into when he tried to repeat Hebden’s idea two years later, namely 7 …Bg4!?. Now B--Schmaltz continued 8 Ng5 e5!? 9 de Ne5 10 f4 Nc6 11 f5 h6 12 h3 Bh5 13 Nf7!?, but Black looks OK, and ditto against the immediate 13 g4. Meanwhile there’s also Palliser--Smith which went [8 Ng5] 8 …a6 9 Bc6 bc 10 h3 Bd7 11 f4!? Qb8 12 0-0!? h6 13 Nf3 Qb2!?. This sort of structure reminds me of the Modern line 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 Nc6!? 5 Bb5!? a6 and the Nimzo 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 Nf6 4 Nc3 e6 5 Bb5 a6 – in other words highly double-edged but hopefully OK for Black! I know MNb has a subtle appreciation of this kind of attacking set-up for White -- maybe he might have some thoughts here ...? Turning to your early …e6 idea in the 4 d5 line -- yes, I like it! If the not entirely natural looking 11 Re1 is White’s best I have faith in Black’s idea! But what else? 11 Be3 isn’t possible here and 11 e5 is surely no problem. As with many other 2 …g6 / 4 …Ne5 positions the exchange of Knights seems on balance to benefit Black – although White is less clogged on the f-file he has less control of d4, and meanwhile Black has eased his cramp and has freer play for his pieces. True, he’s lost some time, but if we compare the position with, say, an Averbakh with 3 …c5 4 d5 d6 then …e6, we can see that because Black hasn’t spent a tempo moving the c-pawn he’s only one development-tempo down on that line. Of course, Black often plays …Ne7 there, which makes me wonder if in your line 8 …e6 is an idea as well.


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linksspringer Senior Member Offline Posts: 376 Joined: 09/25/07	Re: Nimzowitsch Defence 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 Nf6 4 d5 Reply #23 - 06/04/08 at 12:01:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	In the meantime I've also been thinking about the line 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 4.d5 Ne5 5.Nxe5 Bxe5 6.f4 Bg7 7.c4 d6 8.Nc3 I haven't reached a firm conclusion on 8...c6 (or 7...c6), but I was wondering what you think about another idea: break with e6 first, and only after swapping on d5 advance with c6. For example: 8...Nf6 9.Be2 (9.Be3 e5! 10.fxe5?! Ng4 11.Bd4 Nxe5 was already slightly better for black in Demeter-Kirchner; 9.Bd3 would leave g4 weak: 9...c6!?) 9...0-0 10.0-0 e6 11.Re1 (11.dxe6 Bxe6 looks fine) 11...exd5 12.cxd5 c6 13.Be3 (13.dxc6 bxc6 14.Be3 Rb8 15.Rb1 Qc7 is pleasant) 13...cxd5 14.exd5 Re8 equal, but I already prefer black; or 14.Nxd5!? Nxe4! white probably has just enough comp for the pawn.


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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1977 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: Nimzowitsch Defence 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 Nf6 4 d5 Reply #22 - 05/31/08 at 10:02:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	Great to have the Forum back and in good health! Looks like some good stuff here, linksspringer! -- will comment further when I've had a proper look.


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linksspringer Senior Member Offline Posts: 376 Joined: 09/25/07	Re: Nimzowitsch Defence 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 Nf6 4 d5 Reply #21 - 05/29/08 at 16:42:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	It's been awhile since I posted on this topic, but I have not forgotten it! Some thoughts on the line 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 4.Nc3 d6 5.Be3 Nf6 6.Qd2, the 150 Attack vs the "Nimzo-Pirc", as discussed earlier by Michael in other threads. I have looked at several sixth-move alternatives here, but in the end I believe that black should just play 6...0-0 and keep all options open. This position could also arise from 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Nf3 (5.Qd2 is considered more accurate) 5...O-O 6.Qd2 Nc6!? Instead, 6...a6 with the idea of playing b5 and Nc6 is recommended in "The Pirc in Black and White" by James Vigus. Let's follow that line a bit further: 7.Bh6 (7.Bd3; 7.h3) 7...b5 8.Bxg7 Kxg7 9.Bd3 Nc6 and now 10.0-0-0 e5! is equal, 10.e5?! is a dubious pawn sacrifice and 10.a4 is white's best try. Looking at our Nc6 position with that in mind, after 7.0-0-0 I am rather attracted to 7...a6!? instead of Hoi's 7...Bg4. The first idea is that after 8.d5 black has the unusual 8...Na7! with the idea 9...Nb5, undermining the support for e4. This idea works better when white has already castled long. And if 8.Bh6 b5 9.Bxg7 Kxg7 then 10.Bd3 e5! is equal again. 10.e5 was played in Kosten-Caleff, but after 10...dxe5 11.dxe5 Qxd2+ 12.Rxd2 Nd7 I think black is slightly better. Other moves after 6...0-0: * 7.Bb5 a6 doesn't look scary, while I wonder if 7...Bd7!? could be tried (8.e5 Ng4; 8.h3 e5 9.d5 Nd4; 8.0-0 a6) * 7.Bh6 a6!? 8.Bxg7 Kxg7 and now 9.Bd3 b5 is the above standard line again; 9.d5 Ne5 worked well in Celedon-Geiger; 9.h3 e5 or 9.a4 e5 (Bg4) look OK. * 7.h3 or 7.Be2 return to (Accelerated) Classical territory, where Nc6 fits well. * 7.Bd3 Ng4! * That leaves 7.d5 and now Speelman's 7...Nb4 looks suspicious to me, while 7...Nb8 is thematic. If then 8.h3 we reach a position that could also arise from the Accelerated Classical (1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 4.Nc3 d6 5.h3 Nf6 6.Be3 0-0 7.d5 Nb8) that is unfortunately not covered by Vigus. Going for ...c6 and ...b5 seems promising. White could also go for a caveman attack with 8.Bh6 followed by 0-0-0 and h4. I think Kraft-Uschold and Papatryfonos-Surendorj demonstrate appropriate reactions. Looking forward to further discussion


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Glenn Snow God Member Offline Posts: 1720 Location: Franklin Joined: 09/27/03 Gender:	Re: Nimzowitsch Defence 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 Nf6 4 d5 Reply #20 - 05/18/08 at 23:15:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Sounds like good advice! Advice that I wish a strong player had told me years ago.


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Nimzowitsch Defence 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 Nf6 4 d5 Reply #19 - 05/18/08 at 22:12:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	Meaning sometimes get obscured when quotes are taken out of their full context, allow me to set the record straight. Both the Clarendon Court and the Nimzowitsch are fine if used occasionally or sprung as a surprise, but as the main or sole weapon of one's repertoire then neither of them are good enough in my opinion. Perhaps I didn't make the above clear in the Clarendon Court thread, but by know my position on most offbeat openings should be well known. Even Johnathan Levitt, who made the Clarendon Court defence tape fully understood the limitations of this opening and the dangers involved in over using it. This does not mean that Levitt's presentation was not good, it was, it simply means one must consider carefully the role some openings will play in one's repertoire as opposed to others. The trap that amateur players often fall into is in thinking that these offbeat systems are somehow on par and a substitute to having to study more proven lines, and then unwittingly spend their whole chess playing life struggling to make them playable and by the time the mistake is realised, it has already become difficult to learn and apply anything else. The latest trend now is for amateurs to compensate for an inability or unwillingness to learn how to evaluate a position sensibly, based on the strategical and tactical elements, in favor of reams of computer generated analysis. However unless one understands how to think about judge and evaluate any given chess position for oneself then computer evaluations do you more harm than good. The Nimzowitsch defence is rare for a reason, its a strategically dodgy and extremely difficult opening to play, requiring very precise sophisticated handling by Black just to get any kind of playable game. I think an amateur's study time could be better served. Toppy
	« Last Edit: 05/19/08 at 00:09:45 by TopNotch »
	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Glenn Snow God Member Offline Posts: 1720 Location: Franklin Joined: 09/27/03 Gender:	Re: Nimzowitsch Defence 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 Nf6 4 d5 Reply #18 - 05/18/08 at 16:29:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	I usually agree with Topnotch and while I realize some of what he says is used to provoke discussion, I can't resist pointing out what seems like a contradiction to me! TopNotch wrote on 05/03/08 at 17:30:46: My advice is stop wasting time with these half way house openings, pick something decent instead and put some work in that will actually serve you in good stead for the long haul. Why is there so much attraction to these unsustainable rubbish lines I will never know or understand, but to each his own. Toppy But he also wrote this mini review: Quote: A Complete Defence to 1.d4 by GM Johnathan Levitt - Here Levitt endorses 1...c5 and if 2.d5 then 2...f5!? which he christens the 'Clarendon Court' defence named after the block of flats where he resides. Don't let the silly name fool you, this defence/counter attack can pack quite a whallop, and Levitt uses his own instructive games to provide the blue print on how to play this defence successfully. On this Video Levitt also covers all of White's side lines other than d5, including the infamous Smith Morra gambit, This is truly a complete defence to d4. I enjoyed this Video and it should appeal to attacking players who like to get their opening on the board as soon as possible. Having played and analyzed both 1...Nc6 and 1.d4 c5 2.d5 f5, I rather think it's easier to play the former although both are useful weapons. I just have a hard time believing Topnotch really thinks more highly of the latter and I look forward to his response. I do love seeing these reviews though and I hope we all continue to point out the valuable (chessically speaking) chess products that are out there. Hmmm, sorry for being off topic.


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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1977 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: Nimzowitsch Defence 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 Nf6 4 d5 Reply #17 - 05/06/08 at 14:08:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, it's curious how Black's play seems to click into place despite looking as tho' it shouldn't! I'm really glad linksspringer flagged up this option. I think he's focusing on the 2 d4 d5 lines right now but I look forward to further discussion about this from either of you or from anyone else, esp. about the 6 f4 stuff or, in the Pirc line, Polgar--Hoi.


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Nimzowitsch Defence 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 Nf6 4 d5 Reply #16 - 05/05/08 at 19:37:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well Michael & Linksspringer, I may have spoken too soon - once you get used to the retreat Be5-g7 black's position may not be so bad at all. Seeing some of Höi's games also made an impression, funny how he seems to end up in middlegames that one would expect from quite different openings, e.g. the Dragon or a Larsen Philidor (after ...e5 d5xe6 Bxe6). I think I'll try 2...g6 in blitz if the opportunity arises, just to see what white comes up with! Anyway, I'll be back if I come up with / encounter something more challenging. & I'll try to keep up with your further postings on the Nimzo, even if you keep on agreeing with each other! Bye for now, TJ


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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1977 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: Nimzowitsch Defence 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 Nf6 4 d5 Reply #15 - 05/04/08 at 17:32:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Here are my thoughts so far. On the question of the 4 Nc3 d6 5 Be3 Nf6 or 5 …Bg4 lines, my immediate thought is that the first might be sounder than the second. In their book on the Modern, Speelman & McDonald (p. 54) give [5 …Bg4] 6 Bb5!, following Tal--Hort or Kindermann--Hickl, as good for White. The 5 Be3 Nf6 line was (via the Pirc move order) the subject of two previous posts of mine, post no. 87 in the “Play 1 …Nc6!” thread, and the first (and only!) post in a thread called “Nimzo-Pirc again”. The posts focus on a couple of games by the ever-inventive Mr Hoi, and I’d love to know what you think of his idea, and whether White’s Bb5 plan renders it dubious or not. Hendriks--Leeners: seeing this game the other day I just thought it looked all wrong for White to be exchanging pieces, esp. as he’s moving his KB twice! Leeners’ 12 …0-0-0 looks far too wild though. What’s wrong with just 12 …0-0, or even 12 …e6? As for Ye--Hoi, presumably there’s a mistake in the BigBase score of this game as Black missed an obvious mate in two! I don’t pretend to understand these positions sufficiently yet, but it looks to me as though Black might have overpressed in this game. 14 …g5 looks by no means the only plan in the position (and the same might perhaps be said about 10 …e5, not that I’m suggesting it’s bad). It’s interesting to note, btw, that Hoi used the same manoeuvre in this game as he did in Hazan--Hoi. Canal--Grob (5 Nd4 c5 6 Nb3) looks OK for Black too to me. White could also have played 7 Nc3 instead of 7 c4 I guess, when the position’s a bit like a Schmid Benoni, but what’s that Knight doing on b3? -- it hardly looks as if it’s restraining Black in the same way as in a Scheveningen Sicilian. Should White turn out to have an advantageous plan in the 6 Be2 d6 7 0-0 c5 line, there’s always 7 …c6 to look at. but at the moment, I’m feeling that the direct 6 f4 might be the strongest challenge to Black. In the line I gave, I’d love to hear your views on which piece, the Knight or the Bishop, Black should plonk on d7, and also on the bigger question of whether he can “cause trouble” sufficiently with …e6 and/or …b5 or whether White can hope to roll him up with a kingside advance. Be this as it may, I reckon also that 6 f4 Bg7 7 c4 c6!? 8 Nc3 Qb6!? is an entirely different way of handling the position that’s well worth a look! All this is pretty uncharted territory and I think it might be quite a while before the truth about 2 …g6 gets established, but it’s great fun exploring these positions. Hope Taljechin as well will carry on!


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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1977 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: Nimzowitsch Defence 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 Nf6 4 d5 Reply #14 - 05/04/08 at 08:19:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	[quote]I think 2...e5 deserves its own topic, lets keep this focussed on attempts to reach a Pirc or Modern after 2.Nf3[/quote] Yes I agree, linksspringer -- so I've opened a separate thread on 2 d4 e5. Hope you'll get stuck in there, Topnotch! I've lots of thoughts on the matter of this thread -- hope to manage another post later on today.


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linksspringer Senior Member Offline Posts: 376 Joined: 09/25/07	Re: Nimzowitsch Defence 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 Nf6 4 d5 Reply #13 - 05/03/08 at 23:28:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch, I've started a topic on the 1.e4... forum (Scandinavian), I hope to see you there! http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1209856655 BTW I switched from 2...e5 to 2...d5, you read TalJechin wrongly. TalJechin, I switched from 2...e5 to 2...d5 after Wisnewski's book (with great results), but I am happy with 2...e5 which I still play now and then. Hope to see you back when you have time! Michael, I think 2...e5 deserves its own topic, lets keep this focussed on attempts to reach a Pirc or Modern after 2.Nf3


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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1977 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: Nimzowitsch Defence 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 Nf6 4 d5 Reply #12 - 05/03/08 at 22:38:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	Great to see this thread advancing! I haven't had time to look at any of the concrete lines/points suggested yet, and will re-post when I have, but Topnotch! This-- Quote: Perhaps Black should try 2...e5 instead of 2...d5 either way its a depressing position for Black. My advice is stop wasting time with these half way house openings, pick something decent instead and put some work in that will actually serve you in good stead for the long haul. Why is there so much attraction to these unsustainable rubbish lines I will never know or understand, but to each his own. -- demonstrates truly Lost Highway levels of reasoned objectivity. I think you need to stick around and help us with our research. You could begin by telling us what Tony Miles, poor chap, never learnt -- the refutation of 1 e4 Nc6 2 d4 e5.


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Nimzowitsch Defence 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 Nf6 4 d5 Reply #11 - 05/03/08 at 19:52:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	TalJechin wrote on 05/03/08 at 18:59:36: linksspringer wrote on 05/03/08 at 18:18:29: TopNotch wrote on 05/03/08 at 17:30:46: It turns out that the simple 1.e4 Nc6?! 2.d4 d5 3.exd5! Qxd5 4.Nf3 is just very good for White. Yeah well, 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 Qxd5 4.Nf3 and then 4...e5 means easy equality and I have never seen a refutation of 4...Bg4 if black wants to go for the win. Turns out that this is one of my best scoring opening lines ever BTW you're off topic, if you want to discuss this line further please start a new topic. I also thought 4...e5 was a well known equalizer... Anyway, the above is a very nice illustration of why people play 1...Nc6! White has spent 99% of his prep time on the popular openings among the Top 10, and assumes anything is good enough for the off-beat defences... Btw, linksspringer, how come you went from Nc6+e5 to Nc6+d5 ? (as you mentioned in another thread a while back iirc). Just curious as I've done the opposite - though I'll probably alternate between both of them in the future. (I used to play 1...Sc6 back when the Keilhack/Schlenker book was new - but guess I gave it up to waste a lot of time on the Sicilians...) I'll try to find a refutation of your "Ne5 Nxe5 Bxe5" idea, but it will have to wait till next week as it's high time to fill out my tax forms by now. The move 4...e5 is certainly no easy equaliser, it leads to ending where white has the two bishop advantage and Black is grovelling for a draw, unless you mean well known equaliser from sources equivalent in quality of The Philidor - A Secret Weapon by Seel. The other move 4...Bg4 also leaves Black suffering once White knows what he is doing, the key line here is 5.Be2 0-0-0 6.c4! which has been misassessed by many sources, including Wahls, but in fact Black has difficult problems to solve here. Linkletter is right though, this is off topic , which is something that I myself dislike when it happens to me, so that's why I kept it brief and will not interupt the theoretical work here again. Just remember that you heard it here first when you ultimately come to realise just how problematic the lines I gave are for Black. Toppy Postscript: Linkletter said that 4...Bg4 gave him his best results ever, but I wonder exactly how his opponents followed up, in any case according to taljakin you now play 2...e5 instead.

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: Nimzowitsch Defence 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 Nf6 4 d5 Reply #10 - 05/03/08 at 18:59:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	linksspringer wrote on 05/03/08 at 18:18:29: TopNotch wrote on 05/03/08 at 17:30:46: It turns out that the simple 1.e4 Nc6?! 2.d4 d5 3.exd5! Qxd5 4.Nf3 is just very good for White. Yeah well, 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 Qxd5 4.Nf3 and then 4...e5 means easy equality and I have never seen a refutation of 4...Bg4 if black wants to go for the win. Turns out that this is one of my best scoring opening lines ever BTW you're off topic, if you want to discuss this line further please start a new topic. I also thought 4...e5 was a well known equalizer... Anyway, the above is a very nice illustration of why people play 1...Nc6! White has spent 99% of his prep time on the popular openings among the Top 10, and assumes anything is good enough for the off-beat defences... Btw, linksspringer, how come you went from Nc6+e5 to Nc6+d5 ? (as you mentioned in another thread a while back iirc). Just curious as I've done the opposite - though I'll probably alternate between both of them in the future. (I used to play 1...Sc6 back when the Keilhack/Schlenker book was new - but guess I gave it up to waste a lot of time on the Sicilians...) I'll try to find a refutation of your "Ne5 Nxe5 Bxe5" idea, but it will have to wait till next week as it's high time to fill out my tax forms by now.


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